American Sons Reflections On Being Muslim In America

By Abdal Hakim Jackson | 2026-01-13T19:27:35.584582+00:00 | Topic: Muslim Identity

American Sons: Reflections On Being Muslim In America

Complete Panel Discussion Transcript

Ann Arbor District Library

Co-sponsored by the Interfaith Council for Peace and Justice

Opening Remarks

Tim Grimes (Manager of Community Relations and Marketing, Ann Arbor District Library):

Good evening everybody and welcome to the Ann Arbor District Library. My name is Tim Grimes. I'm the manager of community relations and marketing for the library and thank you so much.

This is a wonderful crowd. Thank you so much for coming out this evening. Tonight's program is co-sponsored by the Interfaith Council for Peace and Justice.

The title is American Sons, Reflections on Being Muslim in America and it is my great pleasure to introduce Ron Gregg from the Interfaith Council who will introduce tonight's program. Thank you. Thanks Tim.

Ron Gregg (Interfaith Council for Peace and Justice):

I am a member of the Common Ground Working Group of the Interfaith Council for Peace and Justice and we want to also welcome each of you and tell you how much we appreciate your coming tonight. We also are grateful for the Ann Arbor District Library and their hosting of this program. This is a discussion tonight with a very distinguished panel on what it means to be Muslim in North America.

The panel will be moderated by Dr. Sherman Jackson, a well-known and very honored professor of Near Eastern Studies, law, and Afro-American Studies at the University of Michigan. Previously he taught at Texas, Indiana, and Wayne State Universities. Not only does Dr. Jackson teach and do research and lecture but he also writes lots of books.

The most recent being Islam and the Problem of Black Suffering which was published just last year. That same year Dr. Jackson was named one of the 500 most influential Muslims in the world by the Royal Islamic Strategic Studies Center in Amman, Jordan and was also recognized as one of the 10 leading experts on Islam in America. It's hard to do any better than that so please help me welcome Dr. Jackson.

Historical Overview of Islam in America

Moderator: Dr. Sherman Jackson

Dr. Sherman Jackson:

Thank you very much for that very kind introduction. I'm told that I have about 10 minutes to try and to introduce the whole topic of Islam in America. Anybody who knows me knows that it usually takes me longer than 10 minutes even say my name but I'm going to try and to do so in a way that will be coherent.

Early Historical Presence

The history of Islam in America is actually a quite long history. At the same time it is a somewhat uneven history. The presence of Muslims in America goes back to the very beginning not simply of the Republic but actually of the settlement of America as part of the new world.

We know that among the population of both slaves who were brought from Africa and even some of the indentured servants who came along with the Spanish and others included a population of Muslims and this goes back to the very early centuries. The numbers of Muslims would increase somewhat after that as the importation of slaves from Africa reached full tide in the 18th century and so we have the presence of Muslims quite early on in America and this is not simply mythical. It's a very interesting phenomenon in that we actually have Arabic manuscripts that are survivals from African slaves who were actually in America in the 18th and 19th centuries and there have actually been scholars who have worked on some of these manuscripts.

So their presence is not simply mythological. We have tangible concrete evidence of their presence. These are of course the first Muslims to come to America.

The Challenge of Islamic Continuity in Slavery

Now what we are seeing today in terms of the presence of African-American Muslims oddly does not go back to the beginning of the presence of African Muslims in America. The African Muslim community on American soil is not able to perpetuate itself and so whereas if you get a mother or a father from Africa who happens to be Muslim nine and a half times out of ten, the children would not survive as Muslims. Of course they weren't allowed to sustain marriages and families and they were not allowed really to establish even places of worship.

So it was a very difficult task to perpetuate Islam within that slave community. So if nine and a half out of ten times you would lose the son or daughter, ten out of ten times you would lose the grandchildren. And so what we have is a situation whereby Islam, the African community, is not able to perpetuate itself on American soil.

What we are seeing today in terms of the spread of Islam among African-Americans is actually a 20th century phenomenon and I'll come back to that in just a minute. In the meantime I want to talk about two separate waves of immigration from the Muslim world.

First Wave of Muslim Immigration (Late 19th - Early 20th Century)

The first wave actually begins in the late 19th century and extends into the early parts of the 20th century. Most of the Muslims who came to America from the Muslim world came from the Fertile

Crescent. They were subsidiaries of the Ottoman Empire and they came to America for the same reason that everybody else came to America, to find a better life. At that time however there were not really critical masses of immigrants from the Muslim world and you get small pockets of immigrant Muslims attempting to reestablish or reconstitute Muslim communities in America, but that's a very difficult process.

One of the reasons for that is that unlike the situation in the late 20th century, in the late 19th and early 20th century, most of the Muslims who came from the Muslim world came from more rural areas. They were farmers and artisans and sort of what you might call blue-collar workers and therefore they did not have either sort of the cultural sophistication in every instance or the surplus income to really build and sustain institutions.

The National Origins Act and Its Impact

The real change would come in 1965. In 1965 of course the American government prorogued what was called the National Origins Act. The National Origins Act was an act of Congress that was basically designed to ensure that the population of the United States remained predominantly Northwest European. In 1965 the Johnson administration rescinded that bill and this opened the floodgates for immigration from the Muslim world and this is the beginning of the phenomenon that we are witnessing in large part today in terms of the large numbers of Muslims who immigrate to America and then we're getting second and third generation immigrant Muslims, well they're no longer immigrant Muslims, but second and third generation Muslims from those kinds of backgrounds.

Second Wave of Muslim Immigration (Post-1965)

Now those Muslims are in a very real sense very different from the first wave of Muslims who emigrated from the Muslim world and they are different in that they, i.e. the second wave of immigrant Muslims, are highly educated and therefore they become a very capable community. They're able to generate surplus income, they have education and sophistication, they have contacts of course because they're going to the best universities in which they are intermingling with other Americans and they are networking with other Americans and this puts them in a position to build institutions, schools, mosques, Islamic centers, and to perpetuate and sustain themselves. And so what we have is a situation that's very different from what we saw in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

African-American Muslim Development in the 20th Century

Now alongside this I want to bring back up to speed the African-American contingent because these are two very different trajectories of the historical development of Islam in America. The African-American community in terms of the establishment of critical masses within the black American community actually goes back to the beginning of the 20th century. It's a very rich and detailed history but I'm going to try and condense it in I guess the two minutes that I have left.

Going back to the beginning of the first decades of the 20th century, the spread of Islam in the black community actually begins with what we might call the proto-Islamic movements. Now these were

movements among black Americans that had for one reason or the other become disaffected from Christianity and began to search for alternative modalities of religiosity in America. Islam was something that they found but more as an idea, an orientation, and perhaps most importantly an alternative vocabulary.

The Appeal of Islam for African-Americans in Early 20th Century

You have to go back to the 1910s and 1920s to remember or to recall that at that time black Americans are still in the stage of trying to carve out a sort of identity that would enable them to escape the negative implications of blackness that have been imposed upon them by the dominant culture. Islam provided an avenue to that because Islam was looked upon as being an entity over which the dominant culture exercised no control. And so blacks would be free to engage in this process of self-identity formation as Muslims or as people associated with Islam in ways that they would not quite be able to do so as Christians at that time.

Now it's important to note here, however, that again that the Islam that they attached themselves to was more an idea and an ideal than a reality. And this is why I call it the proto-Islamic movements. These were movements that were not founded in doctrines and religious practices that historical Islam would recognize as being orthodox.

In fact, they were quite heterodox in orientation. Nevertheless, this phase of the development was extremely important in as much as it had the effect of ingratiating the black community in general with the idea of Islam, which is to say that it's not very long before Islam in the black community comes to be recognized as a legitimate form of an alternative mode of American blackness. In other words, whereas, and this is probably still the case today, culturally, civilizationally, or historically one might say, one might assume a certain amount of, oh, contradiction, shall we call it, between American whiteness and Islam, the proto-Islamic movements led to a situation where all dichotomies, all contradiction between being black and being Muslim had been removed, even for people who were not Muslims.

In other words, Islam became a legitimate expression of blackness within the broader black American community. And what this does is it opens the way for what I like to refer to as communal conversions. That is to say that not the entire community converts, but it produces a situation whereby it becomes quite natural for an African-American to be a Muslim in ways that would not quite apply in the same degree to white Americans.

Contemporary Formation of American Islam

And so what we have are two large arteries entering into the basin of American Islam. We have the African-American community evolving out of this sort of heterodox history, which itself transforms into orthodoxy, all right, between the 1960s and the 1980s. So by the time we get to the late 1980s, of all of the black Americans who had entered into the heterodox representations of Islam, upwards of 95% of them would now be orthodox Sunni Muslims.

And so what we have are black American orthodox Sunni Muslims coming from there. We have our black American orthodox Sunni Muslims coming from their American background and evolving as they evolve. We have the large number of immigrant Muslims and their children and grandchildren who have come from the Muslim world post-1965.

And then in addition to that, we have any number of white American converts and Hispanic converts and from various other backgrounds. This is America after all. We have all kinds of backgrounds here.

And we get these sort of smatterings of conversions around the edges, as it were, all right. Now this sort of makes up the body of Islam in America. And I'll just end by saying that the reality of Islam from within the Muslim community, I think, could probably be characterized by two very vibrant, critical conversations that are taking place within the Muslim community.

Two Critical Conversations in American Islam

On the one hand, there is this sort of intramural conversation. That is to say, black American, white American, Hispanic, immigrant Muslims. And by the way, I've done immigrant Muslims in a sense of disservice because, I mean, it makes it sound like they all come almost even from the same village.

No, they come from some 70 countries in the Muslim world. And so you have all of that variety now in this new space, trying to sort of figure out what the mode of a standard dignified American Islamic existence is going to look like, all right. And there's a massive amount of negotiation going on within that community as it attempts to find its new space.

It's very interesting that the American Muslim community is perhaps the most diversified community of Muslims in the world, all right. And it now has to negotiate all of that, all of that diversity, all right. Second, there is now sort of between the Muslim community and the dominant community in America, what one might want to call a sort of a 9-11 postscript, as it were.

Muslims are now in the position of trying to renegotiate their space in American society post 9-11 and the fallout that emerges out of 9-11. I'll just say this, that however that conversation goes, when one looks at the Muslim community, one should sort of see a duck or a swan sort of moving across a pond. On the surface, the duck or the swan appears to be moving quite effortlessly.

But if you just could peer down underneath the water, you'll see those feet moving feverishly. And so we have this relationship between the Muslim community and the dominant community, which is visible to everyone. But underneath the surface, there are these intramural conversations that are taking place within the Muslim community.

And I think that what we're going to see tonight in our presentations are various unsundry perspectives that represent these different historical trajectories that contribute to what Islam in America has become today. Thank you very much. I'll stand here so nobody thinks that I'm supposed to be speaking anymore.

First Speaker: Mr. Khidr Naeem

Dr. Sherman Jackson (Introduction):

I want to introduce then our first speaker for tonight, Mr. Khidr Naeem. Mr. Naeem is a native of New York City, where he embraced Islam in 1980 through an organization called Dar al-Islam. The Dar al- Islam served a largely African-American Sunni community and represented the largest American congregation in New York at the time.

He left New York in 1987 and lived briefly in Central Florida. After earning a bachelor's degree in philosophy from the University of Central Florida in Orlando, he relocated with his family to Ann Arbor, where he has resided since 1990. Mr. Naeem earned his master's degree in educational leadership and counseling from Eastern Michigan University.

His career has taken him through 20 years of study, research, teaching, and administration. For the past seven years, he has taught social studies at Detroit's Henry Ford High School. He has worked in Ann Arbor's Muslim community as a teacher and mentor and as a trustee and executive committee officer of the Muslim Community Association of Ann Arbor.

And Mr. Naeem is going to speak with us for ten minutes. And I've been given strict instructions to be very strict on the time, and as someone who's mostly on that side of the timekeeper, I'm going to take my revenge tonight. Mr. Naeem, please.

Mr. Khidr Naeem:

To my brothers and sisters, (السَّلَامُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَةُ اللهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ - assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh). I can start, and I can start in just more or less about who I was and how I came. No, I didn't hate all white people.

No, I wasn't trying to, I wasn't on drugs. No, I wasn't going to jail. No, no, no.

I was a young man who had both parents. Oh, I had both parents who... I lived on Amsterdam Avenue. Those of you who are from New York know where that is, right up the street from the Apollo Theater.

Everybody knows where that is. And I started to look at some things. And when I was introduced to Islam, it is tremendously different than a lot of people were in different areas.

Some people had it, got it from their parents. And that was okay, but I felt so good when I got it. I feel personal.

I'm not going to look to the left, because these are my brothers, and they're fathers and moms of my brothers and sisters. I felt like I got mine like the Prophet got his. I felt so good about this.

I was... Yeah, we was outside. Yeah, we knew about drugs, and we saw this, and we saw all this craziness. And I saw this guy, and I worked at RCA Global, and I saw this guy, and we would talk all the time.

And he would tell me, hey, hold on for a second. I gotta do something Friday. We would talk every day.

The Journey to Islam

And I asked him, what do you do Friday? He says, I go pay homage to my Lord. I'm like, gosh, man, that was a lot to say. Just say, you go to pray.

You go pay homage to your Lord. Are you Shakespeare? So he went, and he went, and I said, you know what? Yeah, that's alright. My mother wanted me to be a minister, so I'll go with you.

So one Friday, I went. You know where I went? Twin Towers. I went to Twin Towers.

We walked in. They were calling the Adhan, call to prayer. And I said, what's up? What's that? He said, it's the call to prayer.

I said, don't say it like I've been here. It's my first time. What is it? So I saw, I heard, I said, wow.

So we're talking and we're talking. And there were things that changed me as an individual. The things that we focused on was, stop lying.

Be kind to your mother and your father. Be kind to older women. Oh my God, that one beat me half to death.

Because I'm a little smaller now, but at that time, you took Shahada, the declaration of Islam. You come in, any old woman, and I'm telling you, we swore that they sent notices out. And when I say any, Asian, Malaysian, Puerto Rican, Cuban, black, Chinese, anybody, they would say, they'd have a bag.

You, come here. Come carry this bag for me over there. And this was some of the things that helped us inside.

The Impact of Islamic Teachings

We would talk, we wouldn't have these nice words like positive. Your behavior showed it. We were a de facto people.

We were clean. We read like anything, because you know we were looking for pork. We read all over.

And I found out in 1986 that they used to spray lard in Pepsi cans to preserve the flavor. That's why it don't taste as good as it used to. Okay.

Yeah, don't do that to me. So we were better people. I remember the first week that I was Muslim, there was a priest trying to talk to some guys down in the Bowery.

And the guy that was with me said, look, they're trying to set up their father. So we went down there and I knew him. Hey, father, how you doing? I like the thing, that's nice.

And so we talked to the guys and say, why aren't you doing something a little kinder to the guy? He's trying to help you. He's trying to get you in touch with God. And they uttered the usual profanities.

And I said to the guy who told me about Islam, I said, why don't you walk them over here so I can talk to them? Okay. And I started to look at what I was representing and who I was. And the who I was was important to me.

The who I am became important to me. And that relationship and my thankfulness to the one and only God became a love affair. And everybody remembers their first love.

The Love Affair with Faith

Y'all know my wife, so those of you who do, I fell in love. And I fell in love because I couldn't believe I was a better person. Pause with that.

I couldn't. And everybody remember, like I said, your first love, you don't know. I'm not talking about when you have kids and you have your grandkids and you know that love come out of nowhere for your grandkids.

It does. You just sit there, you go, he's cute. Oh my God.

And then you just jacked up because he a grandkid. But that love for you, you just... I never saw Allah. I never saw the prophet.

But this thing here, this was the dance. This was the bounce for all of us. And I was holding on to this.

And this is why I say to my brothers and sisters who their parents were dedicated. Their parents, look at them. Look, look at them.

Their parents were dedicated. They get... But I got mine like the prophet got his. I'm so... I'm sick with this.

Okay. And so when I had that, because here it comes, because it's gonna get stupid in a minute. When I had this, it was being better.

It was being better daily. It was a better me every day. This Windsor had to be tight.

The suit had... Every day, God said, and this is who I had to be. I had to prepare myself to be a better father. And I have five children.

I had to be a better friend. I had to be a better husband. And I kept doing that.

Challenges and Growth

And that was where my Islam was until I started to move out. And then I started to see that it was... There were grabs. Okay.

You now have to pick a gang. You now have to pick some other things. You now have to put certain things in perspective.

And once you start to do that, you start to see and feel the world as it is. The love is still there. And we all love who we love, but there's some expenses to that.

And so I stayed, and I kept going, and I kept pushing myself. And I pushed myself to the point where it's a good day when I still keep this here in my heart. And I'm not gonna run you down the street and go here, be a Muslim or whatever, but I'm telling you, you don't have to worry about anything with me, with my children, with my soul.

Because this thing here, for us, this thing here is a worship thing. It's a God community thing. Don't let anybody fool you.

Close your eyes and touch your soul. You'll know what I'm saying is true. You wanna be good just so you can get to heaven.

Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for that.

Second Speaker: Mr. Chris Blovelt

Dr. Sherman Jackson (Introduction):

Our next speaker is Mr. Chris Blovelt. Chris was born in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. He grew up in New Jersey and Massachusetts.

He graduated from the University of Michigan in 2006 with a degree in engineering, and later went on to earn an MA in educational... Management, was it? Administration. Administration. In 2007.

Currently, he is the executive producer for Beyond Blue Productions, which is based in Detroit. He embraced Islam at the age of 16 while in Massachusetts. Chris Blovelt.

Mr. Chris Blovelt:

Thank you. In the name of God, the most gracious, the most merciful. Can everyone hear me okay? It's unfortunate I have to follow this up, because I don't think I can top this.

You can just pass on the two minute marker right now. That's it right now. So I guess I'll share my story.

Growing Up as a WASP

I grew up as a WASP, a white Anglo Saxon Protestant in New England, and we would go to Presbyterian church, but only around the holidays, Christmas, Easter, so on and so forth. And when I was about 12, I found myself facing a conflict I think a lot of Americans face, which is choosing

between science and religion. And so this society, I think, it makes you choose sides, especially if you're scientifically minded.

As mentioned, I got my degree in engineering, so I'm a very math, science oriented person. And so I felt from a very young age, faced with this choice, do I believe in God or do I believe in evolution?

And so I began to study a little bit my family's history, my family's faith history, and the history of Christianity and the Bible, and the history of the church. And the more I studied, the more troubled I was, and I never really had a strong personal relationship with God.

And on the other hand, I looked at science, and to me, it seemed very humble that everything we believe is based on evidence, and every theory is by definition disprovable. So the truth, you're always perpetually seeking to get closer and closer to the truth through science. And around that age, around 12 or 13, I left my parents' faith, and I was declared myself an atheist.

Still going to church on Christmas and Easter, so I don't upset them, but I didn't believe in God. And this is the way I was until I was about 15.

The Influence of a Friend's Conversion

When I was 15, my neighbor, his name is Michael Dan, who was also my classmate in school, he became Muslim.

And before that, Mike and I were really different people. He was into rap music, and he had a lot of friends that actually did really bad stuff, and I just pretended to do bad stuff. I was into skateboarding, and I had long hair, and chains, and punk music, and ska, and all that.

And I guess the professional struggle of teenagers is to figure out who they are. But when Mike became Muslim, as Brother Naeem indicated, I think, with his own story, he started to change a lot, and it came from the inside. And normally, growing up, when you tell someone, someone got religious, it's like an insulting thing.

It's like, oh, she got religious. She thinks she's better than us now, or he thinks he's better than us now. But with Mike, when he became Muslim, it was very genuine.

It was very sincere. And I just started noticing these changes slowly. We'd have tennis practice. We were both on a tennis team, and he'd have to go off and pray. And I was like, what is that?

And I would be watching him, and started learning a little bit. And what really struck me was, at the beginning of junior year, there was one class that only the real goal getters in our high school would take, which is AP European History.

And I walk in, and he's sitting there, and I was like, Mike, I think you're lost, you know, because he's always a slacker. He's a smart guy, but he's always a slacker. He's like, no, I'm taking this class.

And I was like, oh, okay. And that's when we really started to get to talk and get to know each other, partially because I moved to Massachusetts when I was 13, so I never fit in any one clique strongly.

And on Mike's side, because he became Muslim, and he couldn't really be around those people doing drugs and drinking anymore, he didn't have this core group of friends he was hanging around.

Learning About Islam

So we started growing close, and I thought... To be honest, I thought Islam was kind of like Hinduism at first, it was like Eastern religion, it had a lot of gods and a moon god and things like this. And yeah, I was really ignorant. I mean, even in this class, AP European History, I'm 16 years old, I had a debate with Mike that I thought all Arabs were from Saudi Arabia, hence why they're called Arabs.

And people from Egypt are not Arabs, they're Egyptians, and so on and so forth. So my history teacher was aghast at that. So to move forward with the story, I was impressed with Islam as a very simple religion.

It made a lot of sense to me. There's one god, that there's prophets, none of the prophets share divinity, but rather they're a chain of prophets, one after the other. And I thought if Moses and Jesus could be prophets, why not Muhammad, peace be upon them all.

The Impact of Malcolm X

And then I read the autobiography of Malcolm X, and that book really changed my life. When I read that, I sort of did hate white people a little. That must have been difficult.

Yeah, it was really, really... Well, I wanted to be like brother Malcolm, I wanted to put the bow tie on, and I wanted to be standing up for something. And I was like, but I don't really believe in God, so I don't know how I can do that. He says in there, if you take one step towards God, God takes two steps towards you.

Now, I'm a rationally minded, science oriented person, so that's a hypothesis. So I'm gonna, of course, test out the hypothesis. So I stopped eating pork and going to parties with alcohol with the intention that this is true, may God guide me to it, and if it's not true, I'm going to go back to... Yeah, go back to in the summer, have a big party.

Deepening Investigation

And so I just continued to learn more and more about Islam, and I had the opposite experience I had with my own parents' faith, in that the more I learned about Islam and the more I questioned it, the more I found myself being defeated by the arguments of Islam. And at first, I was trying to convince Mike to become atheist, because I was like, he figured out Christianity wasn't true, now he's trying to get him one more step there. And I found myself full of questions that couldn't be answered.

Who was the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him? Was he a madman? Was he a magician? I couldn't figure it out. What was he seeking? Power? Money? None of those arguments hold up. And I studied the Quran and I said, is it really possible that this book came from 1400 years ago from a man

in the desert that couldn't read or write, that lived in a society that wasn't even considered really a civilization? And 100 years after his death, it spread from Spain to India.

And I just kept looking at everything. I said, it's just, it seems too perfect. And then I read about some things we call scientific miracles in the Quran.

And when I read those, I found I really was flabbergasted of how to explain this religion in this book. And I reflected on something I never thought of before in my life, and I don't think many teenagers do, but what's going to happen when I die? And there are all these stages when you're in high school, you're taking SATs and getting ready for college. In college, you're getting ready for grad school, and then getting a job, and then getting married, and having kids, and retirement, and all these things you're preparing for, but they're not certainties.

But there's one certainty I never had thought of to prepare for before my life, which was death. And I thought, if I die, I want to die as a Muslim. And so that's when I became Muslim, which was the very... All I realized, I'm going to stop here, is all I did was I just got on the ship, and then it really set sail.

Then the journey really began, which I didn't know at the time, but 10 years later, I can definitely... The journey since I became Muslim is much more interesting than, I think, becoming Muslim. So thank you. Thank you so much.

Third Speaker: Mr. Harris Ahmed

Dr. Sherman Jackson (Introduction):

Our next speaker is Mr. Harris Ahmed. Harris currently works as an attorney for Wayne County Corporation Council. That's right.

He was born in New York. He's a UM alum, University of Michigan. He's an active member of the community and the owner of I Learned Online, which is an online tutoring company.

Harris Ahmed.

Mr. Harris Ahmed:

So today, you got to excuse me for my voice. I just lost it, I think, yesterday. And so, of course, that was perfect timing. But usually I'm a lot louder, but hopefully you can hear me. I'm just going to reflect on, you know, my understanding of this was, to reflect on our experiences, our similar and different experiences as Muslims in America and as American Muslims.

And so I'm going to share some of my reflections and my experience with you. I was born in New York, as Dr. Jackson mentioned, and in the Bronx. Lived in, you know, my mother worked over there.

Family Background

She was a physician there. And so, you know, I was born in the hospital that she worked at. And, you know, but my mom, we moved out.

Well, I should say that my father came to New York in 1963. So actually before that 1965 act. So he was here before that law.

And, you know, so he had been here for 13 years before he got married to my mom. And then they had me soon after I was, in fact, their first anniversary gift. So my birthday is on their anniversary.

So I just conveniently forget their anniversary when March 16th rolls around. But, you know, so, you know, after about three years living in Manhattan, my mom decided that this is not the best place to raise kids. I had a sister at that time, too, who had just been born.

Early Years in Maryland

And we moved over to Maryland and we had some family over there. My mom took a job at Johns Hopkins. My dad, you know, worked there as well in Baltimore.

And we spent a good deal of time there. I went to a Quaker school, actually growing up. And that was actually very eye opening for me because the Quakers, you know, their form of prayer was actually very inclusive.

If anybody has actually experienced going to a meeting house, and I said we used to go to meeting houses. It was it's been a long time now, but I think was every Monday, if I recall. And very plain space.

There's no pictures, nothing. And you just spend your time and you do what was called centering. You know, so all throughout elementary school, we did this thing of centering where you just it's really meditation, reflect on, you know, your life and whatever you're doing.

And this is very much in tune with what I was learning also at Sunday school. I would be going to Sunday school on a regular basis where we would learn about Islam and very similar about reflecting on our values. Learn how to pray, how to acknowledge God.

Live a good life. Be honest. Don't cheat.

Respect your parents. You know, all these sorts of things. I mean, this is really what we were learning in Sunday school.

Brief Time in Texas

Then we moved very briefly to Beaumont, Texas. Now, I still don't understand what my parents thinking was when they did this. But Beaumont, Texas, for those of you don't know, was where the movie Footloose was filmed.

OK, and that's way back, too. But that's it's only claim to fame. You know, really very small town.

And let's just say I was the token Mexican. OK, so no matter what I said, I told him my name is not Jose. They would say, OK, Jose.

So that's the type of place I was in. We were there for about nine months. You know, that didn't last too too long.

It was it was a little bit uncomfortable. But after that made it actually much bigger move. And for me, this was this was actually quite traumatic.

The Move to Saudi Arabia

Just the initial move. And that was to Saudi Arabia. My mom and dad had taken a position at the hospital over there in Riyadh at one of the hospitals there.

So my mom went ahead of us, actually. So she went ahead and went there. And I had visions just like all of you probably have visions if you haven't been to Saudi Arabia, although in today's day and age, you've probably seen pictures, videos and whatnot.

This is back way back. And I thought we were going to be living in a tent also. You know, I thought I thought there's going to be a camel outside.

We're going to be living in a tent. And this is my vision. And I was Muslim.

You know, you know, this is coming from a Muslim family. This was my image of what it was. My mom would write letters and we would write back before email and whatnot.

Anyways, when we got to Saudi Arabia, you know, it was kind of eye opening. I mean, we lived on this compound that was essentially the best way I can describe it. It's like a resort.

You know, literally a three mile across resort. Like it's a Walden area where you have people from all over living there. Mostly not Saudis.

They were actually all, you know, Americans, Europeans and whatnot. So it was this multicultural place, but more, you know, from outside. And we lived in this resort world.

Religious Challenges in Saudi Arabia

Now, this is where, you know, this is relevant to my experience over here. I told you I was going to Sunday school and all this kind of stuff. One thing that happens over here for Muslims in America and people of many other faiths is you're paranoid.

You know, you're paranoid by the outside culture and and all the different pressures that are out there and whatnot. And your parents, you know, no, no. You know, you got to go to Sunday school.

You got to learn about your faith and you've got to, you know, make sure that they keep it on top of you. You can't do this. Can't do that.

Can't do this because you might get in with the wrong people and whatnot. Well, they got to Saudi Arabia and they said, OK, well, this is a Muslim country. You know, no problem here.

You know, you'll just absorb things by osmosis or something of that sort. And, you know, frankly, you know, we're on this compound that's quite secure, you know, and they just let you kind of go free and do whatever you kind of want to do. So let me just say I was, you know, OK, kid before that.

I got to Saudi Arabia and I can say that I got into pretty much anything and everything you can get into, you know, that you would expect to happen over here. But actually it was going on over there. And yeah, I was definitely on the wrong track.

I was heading to being a juvenile delinquent, basically. I mean, that's really where I was headed. And, you know, it was it was not good.

A lot of stuff that we did. I won't go into detail on that, so I'm sure people want to hear. But why I say this is so I really this is the kind of person I'd become.

The Transformative Pilgrimage

I really was was, you know, really like a juvenile delinquent, so to say. My mom took me to to do the Umrah, which is the pilgrimage. It's a smaller pilgrimage to Mecca.

And I went with her because she took me along. I had no choice, really. And I went.

I mean, that's really how I thought about it. I like I got to go. OK.

And I went in literally to the the great mosque there. I walked in and you have, you know, men have to wear two towels. So I'm wearing these towels and I'm thinking in my head, I still remember this.

What I got to wear this stuff. I mean, is this still going to fall off? I mean, you know, this is uncomfortable. You know, I was that's all I was thinking about.

I was not in some spiritual, you know, mind frame or mindset or anything of the sort. Nothing. I walked in and I saw the the Kaaba, you know, the black cube that you have seen all of you have seen.

I saw the Kaaba. And I heard this hum. I just heard this hum.

And I told you, I walked in like a punk. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not.

And I started crying. I just started. I just started crying.

No, I really I mean, to this day, when I when I think about that, I'm like, what, you know, what happened? I just started crying and something just happened. I said, I didn't even want to be near my mom because, like I said, I'm just a tough guy and whatnot. And I don't want to be near her.

I just did my own pilgrimage by myself. And I just, you know, the whole time I was like, you know, God, what what have I been doing? What have I been doing? You know, please save me from the path that I'm on. Please, you know, please save me from the path that I'm on.

And so, you know, I respect my brother, Heather, you know, and what he was saying that our parents raised us and all that. And they did. But, you know, we all go through this experience.

It's a choice. It's a choice that we make. And at that point, I made a choice to follow my faith and to live it.

Returning to America and Boarding School

And when I came back, when we came back and we landed, I literally lost all my friends. The same story that that Chris was sharing about Mike and how he lost his friends, because we basically had nothing in common anymore. You want to go vandalize this? You want to go do this? You want to go do that? No, no, no.

Well, I guess, you know, I didn't I had to have a whole new set of friends. OK, so now we get to America and I want I want to get to this is important. In Saudi Arabia, in the American school system, here it comes.

See, OK, so the school system is only it only goes to ninth grade for the American school system. OK, and after that, the tradition was that you just go to boarding school. Your parents moved back.

OK, so I went to boarding school. My best friend before me, my best friend before I had gone to the pilgrimage, he had gone to boarding school. He was one year older than me.

He got kicked out. He went to the Northeast schools, one of the nice schools over there. He got kicked out for doing drugs and alcohol and dealing them and whatnot.

I mean, this is the type of path that I was going to be on going there. So my parents were very wary of sending me to boarding school, but they knew that I had changed, but they didn't want to even send me in the vicinity like the radius of there. I was going to go to Deerfield Academy from his home state, but they didn't want to send me in, you know, like where I could even, you know, be contact.

So I went to Florida for boarding school. Now, again, the irony is that my parents wanted to send me someplace where I'd be preserving my faith and all this kind of stuff. Right.

Well, I go to this boarding school. I was the only Muslim there. And out of all these kids, it's like a thousand student school total.

I mean, but in high school, probably a lot less. Anyways, I'm the only Muslim there in a Florida boarding school. Florida boarding schools are very different from Northeastern boarding schools or prep schools.

You know, we don't we have uniforms, but they're a lot less that they're a lot more lax and whatnot. Anyways, I was there the first day and we had study hall. And, you know, our study halls are in our rooms, in our dorm rooms.

You know, you just open the door and you have, you know, monitors and you study. I had to make a choice. I got there my first day.

And remember, my parents left me and they're gone a thousand plus miles and thousands of miles across the sea. You know, like imagine that for a young a young man and just entering high school. And I had to make a choice.

You know, am I still a Muslim? Do I believe in this? You know, because it's not comfortable. I had to pray. It was prayer time.

Standing Firm in Faith at Boarding School

Study hall coincide with prayer time. Now, when we pray, it's a very specific time. We have to pray and specific motions and whatnot you have to do.

And you can't talk to somebody. I had a roommate. I told my roommate right away.

My roommate came from Georgia, Southern Georgia. So, you know, I wasn't expecting him to necessarily have ever met a Muslim or know anything about it. And of course, he didn't.

And I told him, I said, look, I'm a Muslim. He's like, you're what? I'm a Muslim. OK, I just got I'm going to pray right now.

This is what I do. I cannot speak to anybody. Somebody cannot walk in front of me and I'm going to pray.

So I pray. He's like, OK, that's fine. So I pray.

By the time I'm done praying and prayer only takes 10 minutes. There were 20 people in my room. One guy would come, he'd be like, shh.

Another guy would come, shh. You know, 20, 20 guys. OK, and I'm trying to pray.

OK, and I can't talk to them at that point. I can't do anything. So anyways, I finished my prayer.

They had a million questions. They were asking me, you know, where's your idol? What are you doing? Blah, blah, blah. You know, all this kind of stuff.

Of course, we don't pray to idols. OK, that's a stop sign. But we don't pray to idols.

But the point is, you know, I answered all their questions because I had chosen my identity. I had chosen to be a Muslim. Nobody forced me to be a Muslim.

I am confident in my faith. I'm confident in who I am. And I respected who they were.

Earning Respect Through Consistency

So by the time I left boarding school, the last and this is what I'm going to end on. When I left boarding school, the seniors went out. They were all going out and we were all buddies.

And I played basketball in high school. I played while I was fasting, did all this kind of stuff. They all knew about all the stuff that I'd gone through and whatnot.

We were buddies and they were all going to the strip club. OK, just frankly, that's that's where they're heading for their senior party or whatnot. Of course, I told him, you know, I'm not going, you know, and they say, come on, come on.

Some of them were like, come on, just just go. You can just turn the other way and not look and blah, blah, blah. You know, what's the big deal, right? And I was like, but before I could even say anything, a lot of guys just stepped up and said, no, you know, leave him alone.

That's what he wants to do. That's what he wants to do. And then they all shook my hand and said, I respect you, but I'm going.

I was like, you know, if you respect me, don't go. You know, like but you know, that's that's you know, that's that's where it ends. But, you know, all I can say is that, you know, I think, you know, experiences vary.

But, you know, that's where I come from in terms of my Muslim American experience. Of course, there's a lot more. I'm thirty five years old now.

So, you know, I'm married. I have three kids. I went to the University of Michigan.

There's a lot more. But I think that's enough to kind of share, you know, maybe my perspective. Wow.

What a treat.

Fourth Speaker: Dr. Shamil Haq

Dr. Sherman Jackson (Introduction):

OK, our final speaker is Mr. Shamil Haq. Shamil grew up in Detroit and Livonia, where he led in high school wrestling.

He went on to complete his bachelor's degree and master's degree in public health at the University of Michigan. While there, he won a national championship in college boxing for the University of Michigan. He then pursued medical training by completing medical school at Michigan State University and completing training as both a neurologist and psychiatrist at Henry Ford Hospital.

During his medical training, he and his wife, Sadia Shakir, starred in a reality television show, called 30 Days as a Muslim, that aired on FX, not Fox, right? FX. All right. As well as made a guest appearance on the Oprah Winfrey Show.

He now runs a memory and neuropsychiatric clinic at Henry Ford West Bloomfield Hospital and is happily married with three children. Shamil Haq.

Dr. Shamil Haq:

In the name of God, most beneficent, most merciful. Assalamu alaikum. Peace be unto you all. I think the best part of that is I'm happily married with three kids.

Yes, yes, it does deserve a clap. All right. It's really interesting the way this progressed.

We started with people who embraced the faith to somebody who lived overseas and lived the faith. And now you're to me where I was born Muslim and I've grown up in Southeast Michigan, lived here all my life. Oh my God.

And I've lived and really haven't been outside of the Southeast Michigan area. So I'm going to talk to you more about the challenges of growing up as a Muslim, especially in the Southeast Michigan area.

Growing Up in Detroit

I grew up in Detroit for about until seven years old. And that was an interesting time. I'm a son of working class family. My dad was an engineer at Chrysler, initially now Ford.

And my mom was a daycare worker. And I still recall in Detroit, we used to get paddled actually in growing up in school. It's something that's unheard of now.

But I mean, I really enjoyed the time there. We moved over to Livonia. Livonia is it's a great city.

Life in Livonia

But if most people don't know this unusual fact about it, it's the largest population in the nation with the least diversity. It has over 100,000 people, and really 98, 99% Caucasian. And the school I went to, Churchill, was on the border of Westland and Livonia.

So a lot of working class, primarily Caucasians. So, you know, much like Horace, the challenge was, how do you maintain your faith in the environment of the dominant culture? And so, for example, you know, there's certain rules that we can certainly talk about in the question and answer. But some of those rules would be Muslims didn't date when they got to know somebody that was for the intention of marriage.

That's the way that my parents raised me. Muslims didn't drink alcohol, didn't eat pork. So, I mean, these things became a challenge when you're going to school, middle school.

I still recall the homecoming queen asked me out for prom. And, you know, yes. Yeah, that's right. She's here in the audience. No, no. So that was a challenge to turn the homecoming queen down.

But yes, you know, that was interesting. I mean, just to try to explain how that, you know, why I believe the way I did. The other thing was when I got to high school, it got even more challenging, obviously with drugs.

Facing Discrimination and Prejudice

And the delinquent behavior of a lot of people that you grow up with. I mean, I think we've all been through those kinds of experiences of, you know, your parents tell you, you know, don't go to those bad friends and go to the good friends. And so there, you know, I really got the challenge of they didn't know I was from my parents were originally from India and Pakistan.

I'd never been I'm not Arab, never been to Arabia, kind of had the same impression that Horace did. But unfortunately, in high school, they thought I was Arab. So I used to get sand near towel head, rag head.

And my all time favorite was your camels double parked outside. So but so, I mean, you know, responding to that, then, you know, explaining to people that we didn't, you know, when we were fasting during the month of Ramadan, you know, I'm sitting in the lunchroom. I still wanted to, you know, hang out with my friends.

But it was a challenge to obviously eat there because it's this food tastes really good. You know, and the pressures that come with that or explaining to people we didn't eat pork. And a lot of times they took that and twisted in a different way.

They said, oh, are you allowed to call a cop a pig or can you speak pig Latin? Can you throw a pig skin football? And, you know, these kinds of jokes. So those those are the pressures that really, you know, being Muslim, one had to face and go through. I could say, though, that faith is kind of what, you know, was your anchor and what really kept you going.

And I think if it weren't for faith and the conviction that I wanted to maintain, it wouldn't have gotten me through some of the pressures that a lot of us face in high school. A lot of the things that happen.

Embracing Diversity

The other thing I wanted to mention on a separate note was I'm also a child of a very mixed background. Dr. Jackson talked about America being the most diverse community, Muslim community in the world. I say I can tell you that I've lived that. I'm a Sunni Muslim born to Indian and Pakistani parents who grew up primarily in Dearborn amongst Lebanese Shias.

I used to attend their prayer services. I would hang out there. That's where I grew up was pretty much Dearborn.

So isn't it amazing? It's a testament to America that we can bring all of that kind of diversity and yet still, you know, get along and be able to progress. And I think that that's a great testament to America. But those were those were some of the challenges I just wanted to describe.

I think going forward, I think the 30 Days show really outlined kind of what life was like as a Muslim. And I'd encourage you all to, you know, unfortunately, a shameless plug, but, you know, really check out the video. It's a great video on sort of living life as a Muslim.

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It might be. I don't know. You could Google video it.

It's just writing 30 Days as a Muslim. But I just wanted to kind of highlight those those things. I think boxing and finding those releases was also important, not only faith, but sports.

I think boxing was also a challenge, you know, going to different events and the pressures that came with that. I think it was again, faith was something that really got me through that. So I just wanted to leave you all with that, that there are things in life that we all face and where we can turn to faith as something that's an anchor for all of us.

So thank you.

Question and Answer Session

Dr. Sherman Jackson:

Yes, now we have the pleasure of being able to entertain questions from the floor. And I am simply going to go through some of the questions that I have here.

And I guess none of them are addressed to any particular panelists. So I guess anybody who wants to speak to the to the question can do so. The first one is, could the panelists please speak a bit about being Muslim in the post 9-11 reality?

Question 1: Post-9/11 Reality

Harris Ahmed:

I guess I can start. You know, 9-11, you know, rocked everybody's world. I don't everybody remembers. It's one of those events that everybody remembers where they were when it happened.

I had just finished law school and I was, you know, I think I was making some decisions, some career decisions at that point. So I remember waking up, turning on the TV and seeing what was happening and feeling this chill just go down my spine. And I remember crying, I remember crying and just thinking about, you know, really it was surreal.

And I think everybody shares that type of experience. It was a surreal experience. And I don't think I could have imagined at that point it wasn't I was reacting more as a as a human being and as an American.

Rather than as a Muslim in particular or anything of the sort, because I wasn't I was just thinking of that, you know, wow, this is actually happening. This is my dad used to work here. You know, this is you know, and this is a place, you know, this was where I was born.

You know, this is like this just can't be happening. This can't be happening, you know. And so the reason it was a whirlwind for me after that is.

Because I was asked and approached by a civil rights organization right after that, I just graduated from law school, remember this. And I was asked to take the helm of the Michigan chapter of the most prominent and largest Muslim civil rights organization. That's the Council on American Islamic Relations of Michigan.

And the next two or three years of my life were a whirlwind. I mean, I was at the center of this huge fallout that happened and it continues to happen, actually. In fact, for Muslims, I think we're starting to feel the brunt of it a lot more now than even right after.

And so we had to deal with this quite a lot. So, you know, we had lots of cases coming in of discrimination. We had lots of you know, obviously, there was a lot of outreach, people wanting to know about what is Islam, what are Muslims, who are Muslims, this kind of thing.

We did a tour throughout the state. I mean, speaking to I would be coming home like really, really late. I mean, it was my wife is sitting right here.

That's why I'm pointing right here because she remembers. But in fact, she was with me right initially. I mean, it was, you know, she was there helping me.

But in any case, it was a whirlwind. And yeah, how did it affect? I mean, look, if I could go back right now, I don't think there's a person here. I pray.

I wish that 9-11 did not happen, you know, for so many reasons. And one of them being, you know, just the effect that it has had on Muslims and Islam and the perception of Muslims and Islam across the world. There's one point something billion Muslims.

And for the acts of this small group, and believe me, this is a small group of extremists that all of us, you know, all of us despise and they repulse all of us. But, you know, the whole entire our whole entire population got painted with them. They became our ambassadors somehow.

And and that to me, you know, there's there's not a day that goes by. You know, if you want to know what do Muslims think about? Yeah, we worry about all the same stuff as you. You know, we worry about our kids and their education and saving for that and, you know, paying the bills and, you know, and socializing all that kind of stuff, whatever.

Yeah, we worry about that. But I don't think there's a day that goes by for a Muslim in America, especially now that they don't think about the effects of 9-11 and the effects and the image of Muslims in America and the perception and the stuff that the nasty stuff that is being said about us and the future that our kids are going to have to live in. We think about this in our in their country, in their country, our country, their country.

My daughter, she doesn't I mean, at least I speak another language. You know, my parents taught it to me. But my daughter's she's been to almost every state in the United States.

She hasn't actually traveled overseas. But I'm worried about the world that she's going to live in and grow up in or that they're going to grow up in. So, yes, it has affected us and it does.

There's everything kind of, you know, to the point where when we speak on the phone with each other, I can't I can't call up Shemal and be like, man, that game was the bomb. Oh, sorry. Yeah.

So, you know, like that type of thing, paintballing. You know, somebody texted me today and they're like, hey, you want to go paintballing with a bunch of guys, you know, two weeks from now? I got to think about that. You see what I'm saying? You know, I can't I can't be caught paintballing because I'll be on Fox News tomorrow.

And then they'll be like, these guys are training. Right. So say, you know, these are all the things that go through our heads.

Now, everything is like with this lens, we can't even be who we are, you know, in a way. So if you meet a Muslim and they're acting kind of like, you know, awkward or whatnot, think about, you know, what's going through their head. Because they're a little bit, you know, nervous.

So that's my take.

Dr. Shamil Haq:

I just wanted to add two things to that. First, I mean, we're here as American Muslims. So that's both parts of that are our identity. So as Americans, we obviously feel the sadness.

And and, you know, every year you see the 9-11 anniversary. We all feel that pain for what it did to our country. As Muslims, there's a part of me that is, you know, obviously very, as he said, we despise that. But I think what I also maybe despise might not be the right word, but I guess I'm just discouraged by or disappointed with is that somehow it is seen that Muslims must explain the actions of these people that every Muslim has to.

So, for example, you know, we and we can talk about this in more detail, the things like the Ground Zero mosque or whatnot. It's as if American Muslims have explaining to do about, you know, why these things are happening or why do they continue to happen? And the reality is, is that as Americans and as Muslims who are peaceful and loving, they really have nothing to do with us. We are who we are in this country.

We tend to maintain it, our peace. The only thing that's there is the is the share of faith. We share faith.

But that that I mean, that could be said about a lot of other acts that have happened in the past. Whether slavery could be explained as a sharing of race by people or the acts of Oklahoma City could be in 1993 could be explained by the sharing of faith by certain Christian groups. We can't lump all peoples together based on the actions of a few.

And I really want to stress that.

Question 2: Muslim Women's Experiences

Dr. Sherman Jackson:

OK, I have a question here that just provides an opportunity for a point of clarification. The question reads, I would like to hear from some Muslim women about their experience.

Actually, this panel was on was on Sons of America. And there had been a separate panel that included all women and which women, Muslim women did talk about their experiences. So we're not avoiding the topic of women.

This is just simply not the forum for that for that discussion. I also do want to say I'm Tim Grimes from the library that if you're interested in that, that is on our website, AADL.org, because we did film it. So it's available if you're interested in the topic.

It's available for everyone to see. Excellent. Thank you, Tim.

Question 3: Children Expressing Interest in Different Religions

Dr. Sherman Jackson:

OK, we have a question here. How would you respond if your son or daughter expressed interest in practicing a different religion?

Mr. Naeem:

You sit down, you talk to them. Talk, what what what is it that what is it that makes you interested? What is it about the faith? And you sit and talk to them.

If my son or my daughter. I'm a little funny with my daughter. I'm my son, you know, I'll sit down, I believe I've given that icon of manhood and everything.

I'm a little funny with my daughter. As soon as I hear there's another opposite sex has something to do with it, I'm thinking differently. OK, I'm thinking differently.

I said I'm thinking differently. But now you find out. I mean, because I had that conversation with my mother.

And my father, my father, he like grabbed me and said, so what's this? And I talked to him. So that's, you know, you talk to him, you know, OK, I don't want to go to U of M. I want to go to Michigan State. You know, you talk to them.

You have a conversation. I think Michigan State has a better it is. Really? Really? He's been at your house, hasn't he? Or something, you know.

So you just have the conversation with him. That's that's what I would do. And then I'd kill him.

And I tell him, are we still being taped? I was going to say, that's what's going to make Fox News. That'll be that clip.

Harris Ahmed:

Anybody else want to add? I think that's it. I mean, I think that's the philosophy. I mean, we have the same thing. We talk.

We talk. My daughter, my eldest daughter, is eight years old. And already, you know, I talk to her about drugs, alcohol, all that kind of stuff, because I want her to be ready.

There's not it's not too soon. Right. And then I did test her on on dating.

You know, I know we're talking about faith, but I said, do you know what a date is? She said, sure. She said, Kajur. And that's the the Urdu word for dates, you know, like the ones you eat.

So so I said, I said, OK, cool. Yeah, we can talk about that later. That's good.

So anyways, but yeah, no, I think that's the main thing. I mean, the attitude is is to talk about it, because look, at the end of the day, there's no compulsion in religion. Of course, you desire for your kids what you desire for yourself.

You know, we love our faith and we would like them just like anybody else. You'd like them to grasp those values and share those values. But if something happens, you just you can only pray for them and try to guide them.

That's it.

Question 4: Resources About Moderate Muslims

Dr. Sherman Jackson:

OK, next question. What resources, in quotation marks, are available to those of us who are non- Muslim to give to those who are fearful of Islam when it comes to, quote, why don't moderate Muslims come out publicly against the radical Muslims who want to destroy the West?

Dr. Shamil Haq:

I've got one for you. Go to the website care. Is it dot com now? Or I think I think that or care dot org. There is a C.A.I.R. I'm sure they C.A.R.E, too, but it's C.A.I.R. The that's the Council of American Islamic Relations.

They have a link to a 68, 68 page list of all the different scholars or moderates who have condemned 9-11 and some of the actions thereafter. So 68 pages. I'm not sure what more.

You know, needs to be said after that, I mean, it's pretty exhaustive list of some of the most influential Muslim scholars in the world. And again, I have to reiterate this point. It's it's it's not often that people have to explain the actions of others.

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And this is going I think some of that part of this question lends itself to that, is that somehow I have to explain the actions of people who are brethren in my faith. They may have a lot of different reasons than I do. And I think some of their reasons are very misguided.

I think that's probably the way to leave it at.

Mr. Chris Blovelt:

OK, next question. Do you believe that Sufi, I am, I assume they mean Sufis, are given their share in decision making in our mosques? OK, look, you know, actually, I it depends what mosque you're talking about or whatever it is.

But to be honest, most people don't ask you for a badge or, hey, can I see your Sufi badge, you know, like or whatever it is. You know, you don't have like a stamped passport or something like that, you know. So I think that that a large majority of mosques are actually open to whoever actually shows up and wants to actually participate.

I mean, really, that's what it is. I mean, most people don't even want to volunteer. Now, of course, there are there are issues with the you know, what do we have, like 2000, something like that, you know, whatever it is.

The mosques across America, there are issues with some of them in terms of inclusion and whatnot. But that's just like many other faiths. And perhaps it's more pronounced in in mosques simply because you may have a larger immigrant population and also the mix that Dr. Jackson had mentioned.

You got people from 70 different countries coming and mixing with each other. And you have indigenous as well as, you know, immigrant. And so you'll get issues there.

But because I'm just trying to get to what, you know, the question is, it seems like it was actually asked by a Muslim. But I think we need to define Sufi because maybe some people don't know what a Sufi is.

Dr. Sherman Jackson:

Well, I'm sorry, Dr. Jackson, Dr. Jackson. Nobody on this panel is the professor of Islamic studies. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Some of my students are here.

So that'll be considered cheating. So, well, go ahead, Chris.

Mr. Chris Blovelt:

Well, anyway, well, Sufis by Sufis, what they're talking about. Is an expression of a combination of ascetic and mystical Islam. So there are Muslims who are more ascetic in terms of renouncing or doing away with the pleasures of the world in order to purify the self. And alongside that, there is a

mystical element that that seeks to heighten the intensity and the experiential component of one's relationship with God.

In other words, to go from God as a concept, that's something that we think about, theologize about, to God as an actual experience. And that experience can range from, you know, just God's imminent presence on the one hand, all the way up to, you know, actual mystical union with God on the other. And there are a range of expressions of Sufism.

Sufism is not just one thing. Sufism is an orientation generally known as Islamic mysticism. All right, next question, it says, can I just make a point about this question, but the question before.

Mr. Chris Blovelt:

So with all due respect, I don't think the people that are questioning, like Muslims are going to go like a 68 page document is going to do much to convey, like persuade them that Muslims aren't radical or trying to take over the world. But I would just encourage if you're a non-Muslim and you have a friend who thinks that about Muslims, just try to get them to to meet Muslims. Usually that's all it really takes.

I mean, I think we're all pretty nice guys and girls, so not all of us. But yeah, I mean, I'm trying to think of like maybe movies or YouTube videos or something. There's also myfaithmyvoice.com, I want to say my faith, my voice.

That's if you really want to hear from Muslims who are organically just making their own videos, because I think they got fed up with the fact that somebody else is painting and defining the faith for for them or for us. They just basically started doing YouTube videos. Now, some are produced just the first or one or two, but the other ones are just people who are just, you know, turning it on and then kind of saying stuff about themselves.

You know, like, oh, you know, there's been a lot been said about Muslims lately, lately. Well, here's what I think, you know, and so you can hear from them. So my faith, my voice, I want to say dot com or dot org.

If somebody looks it up, just let us know.

Mr. Naeem:

May I ask finally, watch their deeds. Watch their deeds. I can tell you anything that I need. Watch how I act. Watch their deeds.

That will either affirm or betray. Watch their deeds. OK, all right.

Question 5: Dr. Jackson's Vision for Muslim Future in the United States

Dr. Sherman Jackson:

The question, by the way, I actually want to add just a little something there, because I think that well, let me introduce my question. I can take up hit two birds with one stone. It's addressed to me.

So I guess I'll try and answer it. Let somebody think I'm just avoiding questions here. Do you have a vision for Muslim future in the United States? Yes, I do.

But my my vision for Islam in the United States is not a vision that focuses only on Muslims. I really do think that as a country, almost as an experiment, we are at another critical juncture in our history as a nation. And one of the things that that that that concerns me about the present moment is that our sort of national identity is ever so subtly changing.

And we are, in a sense, forgetting what it means for us to be Americans. And I don't mean that in any kind of expression of patriotism to any particular government or administration. But I'm talking about the meaning of what it means to be American.

And part of that meaning is that we as a nation are a negotiated identity. That is that we get together, we agree, we disagree, we compromise, we dig in, we have a process of negotiating who we are. And that process, unlike other countries in the world, can produce multiple possibilities of equal authenticity.

That's what America was always meant to be. I mean, going all the way back to the founding fathers, all right, people like Benjamin Franklin said that if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send an emissary here to teach the religion of Muhammad, he would find a pulpit waiting for him. All right? And if Islam proves to be not worthy in the sight of the American people, then it will be marginalized and it will die the death of so many other ideologies that Americans saw to be unfit.

That's who we are from our inception. You know, if we were friends, we would never be sitting around trying to decide, hmm, let's see, what language are we going to speak as our national language? All right? We had to decide that as Americans. And the point that I'm trying to make here is that, you know, the present moment is one in which there are forces out there that are trying to get Americans to stop the process of negotiating in terms of who we are.

Of insisting that their understanding of what it means to be American is the understanding and everybody else, without negotiation, simply has to conform to that. If that movement is successful, we will all be impoverished in this country. All of us.

And so my future, my vision for America is one in which Muslims make their contribution to sustaining the negotiated character of the American project. Right? Now, and I say that to come back to this question of, you know, why don't Muslims speak out? I mean, I too, you know, have my problems with why do I have to answer for, you know, other Muslims. But I think that to some extent, you know, that's human nature.

But beyond that, I think that sometimes we have to question the question. All right? Because the question oftentimes contains lots of assumptions. All right? That are designed to lead to certain ends.

In other words, I heard something and it really struck me because of who I heard it from. I heard it from Jim Brown, the football player. If anybody knows about Jim Brown, he's a very activist, very much into promoting the interest, particularly of the black, but not exclusively the black community.

And I heard him say once, he said, you know, people talk about Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier. He said, Jackie Robinson didn't break the color barrier. Branch Rickey broke the color barrier.

Branch Rickey was the white owner of the baseball team that hired Jackie Robinson. All right? And my point here is simply this. Jackie Robinson lived in a time of abject racial discrimination against black people in America.

You know, to say, well, why aren't more white people speaking out is to do a great disservice to people like Branch Rickey. There were millions of decent white people who were doing what they could do. The mere fact that they weren't able at that moment to overturn the system should not be construed to be, well, they just don't care.

All right? Muslims are speaking out all the time. And I think the assumption that we can only know when Muslims are speaking out, when there are no more extremists, no more idiots, all right, no more contorted peoples left in the Muslim community, I think that's a very unfair criterion. It would be unfair for America.

It's unfair for Islam. All right? And I think that this kind of fair-mindedness is a part of what we have to bring back to our country and to our social existence as a nation. All right? And we have to understand if we don't do it, then we will pay the price for that.

And today it's the Muslims. We don't know who it's going to be tomorrow. All right? So that's my spiel.

All right.

Question 6: Changes in Self-Concept Post-9/11

Dr. Sherman Jackson:

Next question. The question is entitled, for non-Indigenous, changes your experience in your self- concept post-9-11? I mean, what kinds of changes have occurred in terms of your self-understanding, your understanding of yourself post-9-11? Non-Indigenous? Yes.

Well, I'm just... No, no, I know what they mean. I guess they were the closest to that, but... I'm going to take my authority here and say anybody can answer that. Changes? In self-perception, if no one wants to.

I'm going to answer that. I already said something about that. No, but changes, no.

Mr. Naeem:

I mean, the change in who I am and who I thought I was or who I think I am, no, there wasn't any changes. I didn't go run up to the young man who had the sign and ask him, hey, did you go to the last Klan meeting? I mean, no. Who I am, I've been identified who I am.

I'm cool with who I am. I think maybe the biggest change for a lot of Muslim communities has been the need to, as Chris was talking about, sort of get people to know who we are. And I think that's what this forum is about and many similar type forums, open houses at mosques and things like that.

I think a lot of Muslims recognize that sort of being comfortable in day-to-day life and not explaining to people what Islam is and what your faith is about, it's not going to be enough. You have to make yourself visible so that people can understand who you are and can gain an understanding. And with knowledge, ignorance can be dispelled.

I think that's sort of a lot of what we're going through in this process and the need to engage the dominant community more. I think that was something that we all learned from 9-11.

Mr. Chris Blovelt:

I mean, I guess for me, actually, I did go through a lot of changes. I became Muslim three months before 9-11. So I was like this really wide-eyed, happy convert. It just rocked my boat.

I was like, what did I join? And it wasn't really that I doubted Islam. My faith in Islam was still there, but it was kind of like, I didn't know what a Sunni or a Shia was when I became Muslim, let alone any other differences, like who Osama bin Laden was. But I saw him on TV, and he looked like a very pious Muslim to me that had a big beard and a turban.

And I was like, this is the type of person that we shouldn't I be listening to him? So for me, 9-11 was a catalyst to really, really put me on a path of searching. And I'm still on that path, so ten years later, I'm trying to figure it out.

Harris Ahmed:

Yeah, I mean, I had already alluded a little bit how it changed what I was saying in my identity. Well, one thing I'll say in terms of being an American, I've always been a very patriotic and very strong American to the point where – my heritage is actually – my parents are from India and Pakistan. And we would make trips out to Pakistan from time to time. And I would invariably get into very heated arguments with my cousins all the time because it's just – it's like an international hobby.

It's not just Pakistan. It's all over the place. I mean, it's not just Muslim countries. It's all over the place. You go anywhere. Why is America doing this? Why is America doing that?

And of course, when we're here, we have the right as Americans to critique our own country, but nobody else has that right, right? That's the point. That's how you feel. And so I was like, you guys don't know what the heck you're talking about.

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You wouldn't even be around if we weren't – like that kind of thing. So I get into these types of things. Now, after 9-11 happened, and all this stuff starts – they start hearing all these stories about what's happening to Muslims in America and all this kind of stuff. I have to play that role of defending America while things are still happening to us here.

They really are. We really are being targeted, but now I play that role. But the other thing is it's made me quite indignant to see some of the stuff that's going on.

To have somebody try to take ownership of America when they don't own America, I am part of that ownership. This is my country, okay? So how dare you – you can leave. You can go back to your country, wherever that was.

Seriously. I mean, don't even try it. So that's how I feel.

And really, my waking hours – and I can tell you, everybody on this panel right now I know everybody's working on that. That's one way that we're a little bit probably different than, say, people of other faiths right now is because for self-preservation, we want to stay here. It's not like I want to pick up and leave or take my family somewhere else or whatnot.

This is our country. So we want to preserve what we believe America is. So we are working towards that.

So why are we getting more politically active? You're going to hear people telling you, oh, Muslims are getting more politically active because they want to take over the country. Well, first of all, we're not doing a very good job of that, are we? So secondly, the reason we're getting more politically active, and have no doubt about this, is for self-defense. That right now, that's right.

Obviously, we have positive things to contribute, but it is self-defense because I do not want to see some of those people that are saying some of that stuff be elected into office. Unfortunately, some of them were. And I fear for my daughter.

I really fear for my community in that it's just we're steps away. We're steps away from being interned. And if you don't believe it, go read your history again.

Dr. Shamil Haq:

I just wanted to add one last quick thing. I'll let you add this last note, but this will have to be the absolute last note, 30 seconds, no more, because we have been given notice that we have to end. 1920s Germany also elected.

Unemployment was high, and they did elect the fascist-type voices. So it's interesting. This Muslim community is the bridge between America and the Muslim world.

I was in Saudi Arabia about a month ago, and an Egyptian minister saw me at the airport and somehow knew right away that I was American and asked me, what is this about the Koran burning? What's going on there? And I kind of passed it off as just some one nut in some part of the country.

He said, well, why do these Americans, they hate Islam? And I said, oh, my gosh, you're doing the same thing. You're generalizing about an entire country based on the actions of one man.

And I think that's the beauty of the Muslim population here in this country is that they can explain to the Muslim world that, indeed, America is a great place to live and can be, as Dr. Jackson had negotiated, identity that we can all be a part of. And, indeed, for America, we can explain that Islam is also a great religion that can be a contributor to peace and understanding in the world.

Closing Remarks

Dr. Sherman Jackson:

On that note, I'd like to thank all of our panelists and thank all of you for coming. Thank you very much. Good evening.

End of Complete Transcript

Event Details:

• Location: Ann Arbor District Library

• Co-Sponsor: Interfaith Council for Peace and Justice

• Moderator: Dr. Sherman Jackson (University of Michigan)

• Panelists:

• Mr. Khidr Naeem (African-American Convert, Educator)

• Mr. Chris Blovelt (White American Convert, Engineering Background)

• Mr. Harris Ahmed (Attorney, Second-Generation American)

• Dr. Shamil Haq (Physician, Born Muslim, Southeast Michigan Native)

This complete transcript preserves all content from the original 29-page document, maintaining the authentic voices and experiences shared during this important discussion on Muslim American identity.