Black History, American Muslims, and Conversations about Race

Black History, American Muslims, and Conversations about Race

Omar Suleiman & Dr. Muhammad Khalifa

Opening

Assalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh your brothers and sisters your brother Omar Suleiman. I'm here with my beloved brother friend Dr. Muhammad Khalifa who we're blessed to have as a senior fellow Alhamdulillah blessed to have you as a brother and a friend and your insight and blessed to co- author Last year alongside Dr. Abdi and Dr. Wright where we talked about ancestral knowledge rooting Cultural resistance in Islam and what that looks like.

Introduction to Ancestral Knowledge

And so how I don't think we anticipated the conversations that would end up happening Amongst American Muslims about what the role of culture particularly when it when it includes an element of resistance, right? You know what how we how we fit that all in while still staying true to our ideals of the Quran and the Sunnah is There a contradiction? How do we? How do we maintain orthodoxy? How do we not fall into some of the traps that people have warned about and things of that sort?

So I think it was it was a great paper from that We had a lot of vibrant discussion in the process of writing that paper and and and filtering our own thoughts And I think that's the blessing of having multiple people writing on the same subject and I like the way it came out And I think I'd like to start there your biggest takeaways from this from this idea of Ancestral knowledge and benefiting from what's around us and available to us while maintaining the Quran the Sunnah as a filter So what are your just main takeaways and reflections on that subject?

Understanding Ancestral Knowledge and Islam

Dr. Khalifa: Yeah Well, one is that? American Muslims have also I have often Because of how Islam came into the community been told and perhaps some have made assumptions that there's a contradiction between ancestral knowledge ways of being ways of approaching and understanding and Islam and so Islam Has these broad objectives that of the Sharia? And then in many cases it can affirm like what local people believe but for us like when we my parents came to the Nation of Islam and then through what I think Dean and then as we started to learn more about the religion many of the people who Taught that religion could not disentangle themselves from their own ancestral knowledges, right?

So they made assumptions about their ancestral knowledge as being more Islamic and others that seemed foreign to there as being Not as Islamic so so if you don't mind me saying on that point so the the You know, what's what's being put out there? The idea is not that this ancestral knowledge is superior to others ancestral knowledge It's that everyone, you know Consciously or subconsciously operates with it with a whole bundle of ideas and things and it's important not to Impose one over the other in that sense and always have sort of the Quran the Sunnah Setting the stage the broad stage and then making sure that we operate within that is that that would be precise

The Problem of Invisible Privilege

And as well, we have to un-invisible eyes because so the fact that some Ancestral knowledge has been prioritized over other Types of ancestral knowledge has become an invisible eyes process, right? So it's not so if you go to just a typical measure we're here in Minnesota You would go to most mosques here and say okay talk about ancestral knowledges or epistemologies that belong more squarely, you know within one cultural Background they couldn't separate out how theirs and because maybe they have positional power in a mosque or organization How theirs has been sort of privileged above others and how others have been suppressed They couldn't they couldn't trace that out for you. Hmm.

So it does require some I mean, even though we wrote this piece I see it as an introductory piece The actions that should follow what should require leaders across the states really in everywhere to say okay, are we being because we can't come on the scene and accuse white folks of doing this with white privilege and then Step into a Muslim Center. Are we doing the exact same thing from our own? Sort of like In our own organizations and then we step out with the black lives matter shirts on and stuff like that, right? So we have to be consistent and how we call out privilege and how we try to lift up the voices that have been more Sidelined.

The Question of Comfort and Segregation

Omar: So when people hear that a lot of times I think that sometimes it's really just comfort Some people just feel more comfortable You know if we now have the privilege and there's another type of privilege which is the economic privilege that a lot of people can settle and build a suburban message a Bunch of families can build a neighborhood around that Mazda and it can be you know Everyone from not just this country or this this broader background like it's not just in Dhopak. It's it's specifically Hyderabad It's not just Arabic.

It's it's Specifically a Syrian message, you know And I think a lot of people do it from a sense of comfort and isn't that kind of the history of religion in America? Too right like absolutely when I was in New Orleans Next door. We had a Chinese Presbyterian Church and people just like what is what's happening in why in New Orleans Chinese Presbyterian? So is that is that really a problem and I'm asking not I mean I'm asking so we can flush that idea out a lot Of people would say what's the issue? You know, we'll be good with the inner city masjid. We will you know, we'll try to be respectful We'll try to you know show up at other messages fundraisers But is it is it okay that everyone kind of just goes and does their own thing?

Dr. Khalifa: It is as long as it's not an invisible process and an assumption that one is more Islamic than another I think it's perfectly fine for people to Develop spaces, but the problem is is that when it's a shared space and when folks don't have other options of other places to worship or other organizations to go in here like lectures and then it's invisible eyes that this I Don't have a problem with any epistemological sort of makeup.

I don't have a problem with any type of cultural background The problem I have is that when you invisible eyes some as having priorities And then you make claims about Islam or about Islamic space that it should look more one way or another That's the problem.

The Long-Term Vision for American Islam

Omar: So so if I'm understanding correctly someone moves into a city and says I've got three messages to choose from none of them really speak to my cultural makeup, especially if I'm a convert, you know White convert black convert Latino convert, which is We have a growing Hispanic population And so if I understand what you're saying, even those spaces where people naturally kind of form around You know things that offer comfort or especially with immigrant populations things that remind them of back home Right and things of that sort that there has to be a great attempt To not make other people feel less Muslim because they're less of that particular Nationality when they walk into that measure less of that cultural background.

I mean, I also would push back and say Not not with you but but the idea I don't think it's healthy for the long-term vision of Islam in America that we followed that Trajectory, you know when they say Sunday is the most segregated day in America.

Dr. Khalifa: That's right I don't think we should aspire to that and I think that Spaces where people are sort of forced to have multiple cultures in the masjid Yeah, it gets more tense people have to argue a little bit more because this person comes from this country that country But I think what eventually is produced out of that masjid is going to be richer It's gonna be better for the community And I think that's that is some of our history is that when people came into contact with each other shared spaces though? It's not pleasant sometimes because it's less comfortable You know, we're human beings if we're not gonna fight about or have our arguments about culture. We're gonna find other things There's ego, right? So people from the same country same city will split off and make another masjid That's right make another institution.

The American Pattern of Marginalization

So so that too is a part of the American story though, which is you have Western leaning White privileged leaning Narrative spaces and black folks show up and say, okay. Hold on a second We need a black history month or we need a black student union or Muslims have showed up and said the same thing I don't think it's any problem with the pushback I was only speaking about that when you enter into a space to invisibilize one Cultural background as the norm as the Islamic norm. That's the problem. I agree with you though that If people are being marginalizing that's un-islamic That's that that is if people are not recognizing the human bit But I think that we would agree also that when an immigrant comes many of them Not not voluntary immigrants have come that they also need to be humanized in it My I don't have any problem whatsoever with you saying like this is for older.

They see individuals and our mosque This is our night. This is But when you put the khatib Or when you put the activities or when you put the causes for concern that you hear in the announcements and they all resemble One cultural experience. That's when I think it becomes more problematic.

The Reality of Class and Racial Divisions

Omar: Okay, so on that note, I mean, you know, so there's the Philosophical then it gets like the very practical right and like I lived experience as Muslims living together I think the debate over how can Islam be a universal religion, but then is there room for particular ism? You know, and especially when you talked about the indigenous and especially when you talk about the historical african-american experience. Yeah That's you know, I think that debate especially played out in the community of my water team. I'm a little him a lot I know with the belalian Movement and you know what what that meant.

What were the implications of that now going forward as I think right now you've got a class Division right that's happening as you're seeing the landscape of Muslims in a lot of places in America So Dallas where I live in Dallas Dallas has the worst racialized poverty in America, it's it's a horrible Situation of apartheid and Dallas people don't mix now. So someone might tell you Dallas is wonderful. They mean they're Dallas They're not talking about South Dallas and they're not talking about any of the institutions in South Dallas or the realities of South Dallas They're talking about their suburb, which is broadly associated with Dallas But that's what they mean when they say Dallas is wonderful and Dallas is not wonderful.

I mean South Dallas is a horrible situation We've got the worst child homelessness in the country one out of every three children in Dallas lives under the poverty line Three to one out of three children the school- to-prison pipeline horrible all the cycle of violence It's vicious right? But when I say Dallas is wonderful. I'm like Valley Ranch is wonderful You know, you can come to our mezzanine Valley Ranch and we have a welcoming community that we pride ourselves on we try to welcome everyone Converts people that are from from different backgrounds people that are from different backgrounds Immigrant backgrounds people are from different convert backgrounds men women's people with special needs. We try to make that sort of our our our calling as a masjid to be that masjid that welcomes people, but How do we I mean just the wealth gap is getting worse and And you know, so these masjids are gonna reflect that reality Islamic institutions are gonna reflect that reality political priorities And it's it's I think it's gonna become and I might be wrong.

Race vs. Class: The Intersection

You tell me it's gonna become less about race more about class If I belong to a class a higher income class Where the goal is essentially to be inducted into a power structure, which in America is dominantly white, right? To aspire towards that and so my political priorities are very different than as a community Whereas other people have a very different political priority and I I think a lot of them I mean, it seems like obviously, you know Race will always play into it culture always plans it But but how do you see it as a scholar the income part of this the the class part of this that gap?

Dr. Khalifa: So I Interpret even the question differently because oftentimes like what I work with a lot of superintendents at the work I do a lot of principals a lot of school leaders Government officials ministers of education and stuff like that and one very palpable idea here in the United States is that And it's the reason I interpret the question it was because it's often a way that white people push back against talking about race and engaging race and say it's not racist class Right and data and I know you weren't doing that, right? But I'm I know for sure you weren't doing that because I've heard you talk and I know that you know Issues of race are very real. Here's the thing though. Well, it's racialized poverty.

So race and class race has converged on right there Always, you know, absolutely, but when you go to for example Who scores worse who's kicked out of school is removed to school who's more likely to enter this? The school-to-prison pipeline and you control for race I'm sorry, and you control for class. It's still very racialized So let's go to higher income families and just look across the board at black Latino white You find almost the same gaps even when you do have higher class going on to the lower class So for example here in Minneapolis When it comes to learning data lower class lower SES, I shouldn't say lower class I should say lower sexual socioeconomic status white students outperform wealthy black students Okay When you look at for example education level And in recent data like for example an African American male with a college degree and no prison background has less Opportunity and income that this is census data like national data than a white male who has a criminal background and no degree Right, right And so you find all of these Indicants that nah race will and not only that if you read some of the historical scholars like Ami and why not and others They make it very clear that

What a Western? Histories of colonization reveal Is that the ways that racial hierarchies were initiated in this country were then? extended right to people who From different religious groups people from different language groups people from different socioeconomic statuses But if you read some of the early historical writers of the Spanish American Empire earlier Victorian America They would argue that the initial hierarchies and discourses that set those hires hierarchies into motion were race based lastly every single indicate you come to drop out homicide arrest Police murder discipline even within school detention rates suspensions and it's all disproportionate. It's all racially.

Practical Implications for Islamic Institutions

So so what does this mean for it? I think this is specific of the question What does this mean for masjid Islamic institutions going forward where people are you know? Trying to figure it all out like you walk into a masjid now, and you know yeah you get a feel for the There's something that's indicating something like you get a feel a masjid has a feel like once you walk into a mess Of course it immediately gives you a feel it gives you a sense of we call a school climate But there you go, so what's the masjid climate now a lot of so there are people that are well-intentioned There are people that want to say okay. We recognize that That that things have have been wrong. They've been done wrong We recognize that our masjid bring it down to like a very practical level our masjid has not been has not been helpful, right? We need to educate ourselves more on race relations in the community

The Personal Story: Police Brutality and Community Response

I tell people the story of police brutality all the time that my masjid in New Orleans You know New Orleans of course pre-katrina, New Orleans I'm from New Orleans pre-katrina, New Orleans is very different from post-katrina, New Orleans the the race dynamics entirely changed class dynamics, right? You know the the Seventh War Ninth War all of them got turned into You know high-end real estate which which drastically changed the demographics of New Orleans, but in my masjid funny enough There was an incident of police brutality and I've talked about this and I don't want to go in the details It's it's very it's a very difficult subject to talk about honestly, but there was a sister who was african-american Doctor dr. Jamila Arshad light hammer married to a Pakistan doctor dr. Kaleem Arshad and She was murdered by the police on her way home. She was trying to help a kid that got hit on by a car he was riding his bike I hit by a car and she stopped to help the kid and They made the assumption that she wasn't a doctor. They didn't believe her. She was trying to resuscitate the kid And you know threw her into the back of the car. It was a horrible incident Everyone in my community somehow. I want to say everyone we still have some people that you know If only she follows instructions that garbage right but for the most part Everyone in our community or a lot the majority of our community had a completely different understanding police brutality now It was different to them because it was now personal. It was no longer You know something happened in the hood and then you know The mom told us about this and this and that you saying this new understanding came as a result of as a result of that Incident right? Yeah, and it provoked the conversation. What do we do different? What do we do better? Right? Okay, we understand basically You know and I want you to just think about it when you have someone who is who came from overseas who didn't get the police brutality thing who kind of bought into the just do your job respect the law and everything will go right for You and now that world has been shattered What do we do now, right and so a lot of these messages done for some of these messages that the discussion is well Let's start to integrate some of those voices that have been telling us about the reality of America's racist You know society for a very long time and what that translates into in terms of policing

in terms of criminal justice in terms of schooling in terms of homelessness in terms of all these different things, right and For them, it's like alright. Well, what do we do now? Do we?

The Need for Advocacy, Not Just Allyship

We need to listen more obviously that's that's that's something that that you tell, you know, everyone's well it's always good to learn listen to experiences learn benefits, but What does this translate into in terms of the structures of the Islamic institutions? Does this mean integrating more voices here? Does this mean? The more privileged that the people that will naturally and the privilege is going to grow people that are naturally privileged and have better Socioeconomic status need to spend more on messages like there was an idea that we were talking about where You know some of the mess like like in our community and in Dallas I guess that racialized poverty is horrible Where the suburban methods are going to be expected to spend on the inner-city messages And you know, what's that gonna look like because in Dallas you got swats of poor black and brown folks and you got like sort of the Latinos and there's a growing Islam in the Latino experience and in Texas What does this look like going forward? How do we start to fix this or what? What do you give people from practice perspective?

Dr. Khalifa: So, you know, I think practicing Islam in this sense, right so You know, there's a lot of talk in this kind of work around allyship Forming allegiances and serving as allies. Well, that could be useful. I think what's a more pertinent discussion is advocacy right, how can Masajid because I mean it's not just that mosques have a credibility issue with non-muslims You can go into some message it across America and particular communities and they look like geriatric centers This is it's that message it and Islamic institutions are losing their Relevance even for Muslims in some cases, right people not finding comfort going there. I was raised. I was born Muslim I was raised Muslim and I go into some messages and I don't feel The embrace and the cultural and not even cultural just like kindness, man I mean, right like am I welcomed here or not? And that that is I think That comes across in several ways first of all just the interaction the personal interaction how one is treated What are the topics of the hood, but do I see myself in the curriculum of the video? Okay, what are the issues that I talked about in those announcements? And what issues are you taking up?

The Question of Institutional Relevance

I didn't see many Muslims out there for Fernando Castile when he got killed less than a mile from here And there I think three or four message in this area There were a couple of Muslims around but the I didn't see any mosques taking that up Right. And so, how are you? So it's a question of relevance so for example Muslims with this Muslim man Okay Jump up and they want the Latinos blacks and all of these communities to come and jump on board and support them with that Are you there not you because I've seen you but are the is the community there? When this border wall hops up is a community there when

this police violence hops up is a community there What's the community stance on affirmative action? What's the community stance on black underemployment and a booming economy, right? And so I haven't seen any of the message to take these issues up So the community the message the institutional agendas need to reflect That's that's I think and I think that's lost on a lot of people.

Beyond Tokenism to Real Advocacy

Oh, yes, that's really lost on it Like they don't you know, it's like okay. We need to we'll send some people to the protest I don't care if you come and exoticize my voice in the mosque You put a table up you put me you put one brother who came out of the nation You put a moderator and you come in you exoticize the voice and then you say check black history month. That's exoticization Absolutely. Yes, you know I'm saying when can my knees be met? Well, how can my knees be met in? Advocacy not allyship, but advocacy with the Muslim community, right? Right. So, you know, for example ice as I told you I work in schools Has come to literally the boundaries and When parents say, okay, baby, you have a nice day at school and drop their kids off Roo ice comes up and arrest the parents almost on school grounds What has the Muslim said about that? Have you heard sanctuary muslims you have a sanctuary movement, you know 700 plus churches and synagogues how many sanctuary mosques are there?

The Comfort Zone of Traditional Service

I was gonna ask you that because Yeah, so you'll find I mean and a lot of it by the way and this is not an excuse But it doesn't are trying once again with comfort. Mm-hmm. Wait a minute. This is too soon We will so it would be a lot easier to come to a mess because Muslims are used to Salah, right? Right charity, right? We're gonna prepare 200 meals and we'll serve the homeless, right? We're going to Yes It's good, it's good because I think you know what I tell people is that you know We just did the Dallas homeless count where you go on the inner city and not actually we do the whole Dallas and find where the homeless populations are and take the time to speak to the homeless Understand how you got there survey them let them, you know do a needs assessment Track them come back to them, right, you know help all the other organizations that are combating homelessness Where to go and we're in Dallas. It's very telling and for a lot of most every time I've taken a group of Muslims they're just You know because before that it was step over the homeless person. It was ignored as populated, but somehow like hey, they're not dangerous people There are various racial Backgrounds so you find white homeless people black homeless Latino homeless people, but it's like they're not scary I was like, you know before it was it was just a lot easier to just prepare the sandwiches and drop off the Or to say come to this pantry. That's right Come to this pantry and just pick up your food in the centralized location, but to like go to like alleyways Behind grocery stores and say hi How are you my name is and then have a script and then be warm and then make it be intentional about hey What's your what's your situation?

The Imperative for Scriptural Motivation

No one? I've never been threatened by a person who was homeless I mean obviously sometimes mental health issues not like pulling a gun out on me like they're there You know most most of the mental health issues are self-inflicted. I used to work in a homeless shelter And I worked the night shift too. So, you know, they had curfew things They had like non-intoxicant rules and stuff like that and even in some of the most challenging and pressing circumstances for some of the homeless brothers and sisters They were fully human man much more than sometimes even my colleagues in the university would not be real with you, you know but but you did touch on one other thing that I wanted to respond to and Why is this the case? I think that Muslims. I mean we've been I've heard speeches from for the last two decades Criticizing this almost like selfishness that these immigrant Communities sometimes have and I've created I've heard other Muslim leaders criticize some of them the historical african-american communities as well I think though that their issues are different.

The Immigrant Experience and Access to Whiteness

I You know, I I think that more has to be written on this. I mean, I think it's a perfect Topic for your team to to take up and that is that why that is the immigrant communities? Identities around entanglements with whiteness and western sort of Hegemony and so like, you know What was scholars who study identity and assimilation and all of these things argue many of them? Is that for almost all immigrant communities have come to the United States of America? That they had to almost like in some instances they had no choice But in other instances they had to select where in this racial hierarchy they would sort of like identify themselves right, they definitely didn't want to identify along with Black Africans or indigenous people and they kind of in the beginning I'd say for the first for a long time thought that they might have access to whiteness and some actually may have I Think now though, it's a conversation that needs to be revisited by immigrants I think that many of them know third fourth generations included that they don't have access to whiteness and What that means is is that how do you align yourselves in this sort of new political milieu this post? September 11th you and how do you? Because I the reason I'm saying this is because I think that part of the reasons that the immigrant community has been hesitant and in fact reticent to align and advocate for issues that didn't have anything to do with their own existence is it because that they may have saw That as a blocker to their pathway into whiteness, but it should be clear now that they're not going to ever get into that They should be Even the Syrians who perhaps some of the whitest Muslims know that when they tell somebody they're Syrian that that's gonna bring a different Prominent beautiful brother, I don't want to use his name. Yeah to respect him because it was an intimate conversation, but He's a white Muslim. He's a scholar and he was saying house.

The Reality of Racialization for Muslims

I'm Allah He wears his kufi and his juba and he said that you know in the process It's like he knows like and he's as white as they come. He's like, I know when I walk through the airports I'm not white anymore because of my dress like he's lost access just because of his dress and he said whereas You know You know African Americans and other people would would greet him with a different type like, okay They also see him as not white and he was talking about his entanglement nuts All right It's like it's an interesting the cultural apostasy right of being a white Muslim and then especially wearing kufi and like You know, like he was talking about that that entire experience as well So it's it's what you're speaking about in terms of there is no act. There's no pathway. It's becoming clear that The pathways are communities not there That that in and of itself should not be the reason okay since we can't be white anymore or since I was white and now I've been racialized in some way. Now, let me align with issues that impact minority. I mean we should do that because of our faith So this is actually this is actually one of the most I think important Elements that I've seen missing in this discussion.

The Need for Genuine Scriptural Motivation

Good. Is that largely the community when they talk about getting involved with issues? It's whether or not it's PR and to the benefit of that initial of that trajectory, right? So so even if they're saying we're abandoning that trajectory and we're going to a new trajectory which stands with the margin light It still is with the ultimate goal of gaining acceptance and gaining political and social capital and it's not like hey look You know if the you know, if the Sunnah of the prophets lights of them does not inspire you To speak it not to speak out on these issues but actually like be a part of finding solutions to these issues and they're out there they're out there if you organize effectively if you If you really You know are charged towards those things. They're out there. The solutions are out there. Absolutely I mean if the Sunnah is not enough Then don't don't reject other things in the name of the Sun that's like hey, wait a minute You know, you gotta you've got to that's not I mean, that's that's kind of veering into another subject But when do we act out of scriptural imperative as opposed to just good PR? Yeah, you know like the Muslims now can can take up other immigrant causes because if we don't take up other immigrant causes or the Causes of ice and you know, or you know The abolished ice movement which ice was formed out of Islamophobia out of the DHS Which was an agency formed in the climate of Islamophobia and so, you know largely Hispanic communities are suffering As a result of a climate of Islamophobia, but if people say that what it's good PR or you know We should take up for them because they took up for us. It's like no, that's that's such a faulty foundation It is when do you do things because it's the right thing to do and because the Sunnah of the prophets I said I'm told as a corner with tons of them That'd be black icon.

The Prophetic Example of Standing with the Marginalized

Abu Dawud 2594

Are you not supported except by the way that you that you deal with these? That you deal with the most marginalized in society So it's it's sad sometimes but I don't want to be a pessimist an ultimate pessimist. I do see inshallah I see hope I see people that are in the process of engaging these things just just and I do too imagining reimagining sort of their role as Muslims and so I see people that are becoming much more sincere citizen I'll tell you us to tell us personally After Philando Castile was killed. Yeah, Alton Sterling obviously right before that Alton Sterling was in Baton Rouge and somehow his Where he was murdered is right next to the Muslim graveyard So my mom will add hum has buried like right next to where he would have murdered like I'm talking like you could see And I remember just something about that hit me and then Philando Castile and that's where the protest happened.

I was July 7 There were a lot of Muslims that came out. I'm gonna absolutely now after the shooting happens yes, and you know the shooting of the officers after the protest and it kind of it was scary because Everyone at the protest thought they were being shot at a lot of the Muslims came back To more and more of these things and I thought that trauma if you were there for PR. Yeah Or a glamour shot you weren't gonna show up to one of those things again because Dallas is as tense as ever But they still showed up.

Building Credibility Through Consistent Action

So it's a small group But I'm seeing people that are and I want to you know Appreciate that and also think about how we can offer them pathways those that do kind of see you know What Islam calls me to this? Yeah, and I want to find a way to start tackling these issues more productively. That's right In solidarity even African American Muslims, one of the things that was sort of rinsed out of us and that was Almost like theologically discouraged right like family reunions and other things like that has been this whole notion of how do we engage?

Institutions that how do we engage the early then double ACP? Some of the other people that have been on the front line of fighting for the last hundred years I'm not saying that we have to do everything through these institutions, but that's what that's exactly what advocacy means That's what you know beyond the allyship like true engaged community engaged partnerships actually mean And I do think that there is a pathway and you're right I've seen many many young people and older people to be honest with you as individuals. I haven't seen a community shift yet Perhaps down in Texas.

There's some examples of that. It's it's slow. Yeah slowly, but surely. Yeah, Inshallah Slowly, but yeah, maybe not fast enough. Yeah But I mean, you know, obviously the prophets I sometimes I'm hoping to

expand and by the way not not to shift That is why You know Sherman Jackson professor Sherman Jackson and others argue that there's so much credibility of Islam in the African American community, right? Why was it that in Philadelphia Detroit one can say, you know, 30 or 40 years ago? Look, I'm accepting Islam and their family would be like, all right go right ahead That's that's not the case so much anymore even in African American communities It still is more than Latino white communities perhaps where you know, kind of like parents and family members Completely are upset by that No, but part of the credibility came because the nation it wasn't just because of the nation It was because of the reputation and the actions of the nation and the credibility they had in the community that allowed I think Folks to accept and embrace them because again, they had credibility. They were doing something I think that's what we need to get to you know, that's sincere commitment That's right people's welfare and that's right people's well-being

The Question of Orthodoxy and Activism

And obviously with that inshallah also would give us Because there's a lot of a lot of you know concerns about the entire space of activism Yeah, what are you signing on to is it a you scratch my back? I'll scratch yours. And so we're gonna start violating The Sunnah that's running into causes. That's right we don't really belong to us that we can't affirm or champion because because of our orthodoxy and I think that The more that you are presence Yeah, the more right the more weight your voice has to define an agenda And if we have to carve out our own niche as American Muslims championing very legitimate issues with prophetic paradigms not for the sake of PR but out of a genuine concern for the people that Gives us credibility to say look there are certain things we can't do and there are certain things that we can do and we're gonna Do them with our absolute with the spirit with the prophetic spirit to the zeal of the prophets Like some that's right the him of the prophets. I'm a concerned of the Prophet for these issues.

The Example of Malcolm X's Approach

Not just Not just because this is an issue, but really and I think you know a lot of people when you talk about Malcolm You know Muslim mosque and OAU Organization for Afro-american unity he wanted you know He only had a hundred twenty members at Muslim mosque at its peak Whereas OAU was a lot broader because it didn't require you to be a Muslim But he really tasked those members of Muslim mosque. He said you have to champion These issues you have to you have to show commitments to our people in a way that would make them You know consider Islam because he ultimately saw Islam as the solution to racism right in that sense in the broad sense, right? Yeah, yeah I think championing it so last last question and by the way So we're gonna be writing we're gonna be writing a lot on these things and Hopefully we'll go into I think Carving a pathway is very important for people that want to do good I don't want to and in the process of wanting to do good need to realize that sometimes They're gonna say really stupid things and they need to be willing to say that and be vulnerable and then be challenged That's right. You know like so I think I think I'm you know I might think I'm doing the right thing and then

hey, I say something like actually your framing is off and That's part of this the class of it the sincerity versus you have to be willing to to be challenged on it you know everyone has to sort of be a part of crafting as much as we can a Unified direction that really represents the spirit of the prophets I said on the Sunnah of the prophets like them as much as possible with that being said in the last I think few minutes.

The Question of Black History Month

Black History Month. Yes The framing of or should we operate within Black History Month? So there's a debate we had at your team Yeah, so for the sake of the audience to write it. Are we gonna do Black History Month? This is a black heritage collection Is it a heritage collection and black heritage is one track and then we do a Latino heritage and talk about what? What do you think about I think the general idea of Black History Month? Should we I'm a scholar you're a scholar right as a scholar Do you operate within or do we make use of it? Or do we you know, how do how do we as Muslims deal with it? How society deal with and how do we as Muslims deal with it? What does that mean for Muslim organizations because you mentioned exoticizing we don't want to do that We don't want to invite You know Trump tweeted use that Taco Bell Happy Cinco de Mayo while he was eating a burrito a gordita All right, so so we don't want Muslim organization might say all right, we need to recognize black history We're gonna celebrate black history in Black History Month And I pray that inshallah because at least with the issues and just the makeup that we have it You know obviously that we wouldn't fall victim to that but a lot of Muslim organizations again might be well intentioned Yeah, it's Black History Month. Let's put Muhammad Ali and Malcolm X out there.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think?

A Nuanced Approach to Black History Month

Dr. Khalifa: What well, I think I mean, it's not in the Quran or Sunnah So that means that either side could be argued right and have validity on either side of it two things Black Christian Black History Month should never be used In order for people to think that they are now woke and that they are addressing the issue That's the first thing that has to be clear. So if you perform Black History Month and you you exude anti blackness, for example if you Love Black History Month you come out in February and you're oppressive towards your students who are black Who might be from the continent or who might be African American? It's oxymoronic, right? how can you on the one hand choose and put everything in this month and Not be concerned with issues that are much much deeper and much more much more Islamic that deal specifically with blackness And so that's I think that that's one thing that needs to be clearly said.

The other thing is that It's I don't think that one can approach this as though all communities are the same, right? So, you know you go to Detroit and folks have been talking about Garveyism is but over a

hundred years, right and you don't come with Black History Month with people like that or somebody in Philadelphia and then you go to like North Dakota where they don't even have like a one representative of the NAACP and they have Zero black history teaching Well in that case perhaps Black History Month might be useful So I think that it's it's as much a contextual question as well as it is a question of legitimacy I think that it could be argued that it's useful and I how do you celebrate without appropriating?

Guidelines for Authentic Engagement

That's another I think another very important for me Immigrants Organizationally individually communities, how do they celebrate? So for example, we're gonna celebrate Malcolm and Ali and you said yeah, you know And whatever the entirety of black Muslim history without but but if you obviously lowest denominate if you still have anti blackness Yeah actions or your words or it is then that's that's a disqualifier.

Sure those communities, you know Organizationally institutionally in communities individually, how do they celebrate without appropriating? No, absolutely. So What one I once ran into a young African immigrant right here on campus and she had a Black Lives Matter shirt on, right? And I said, okay That's good What have you done about the anti blackness in your own community? And I started I'm not gonna say which country she's from But I started listing all of the sub tribes in her country by their names that are not treated fully human yet Even now in 2020 in her country. I said, why would you skip it? So in other words, there has to be some priorities with this thing as we engage this topic of black history, right?

And so should you appropriate? No, should you exoticize? No, is it? Okay to allow to for you to support organizations already doing the work. Yes. Is it okay for you to To Not just bring an African American like me to come in and start talking about black history during February and then after that we have No relationship, but legitimately and sincerely engage me and next year as February comes around. I'll be there You don't even have to say anything. It'll be done You know, right if that's if that's something that an organization believes in so I would caution anybody from saying we shouldn't celebrate as Morgan Freeman has said you're gonna relegate my history to a single month. I understand the shortest month Definitely that's a concern but I can also understand like you can go to some places in the United States where They talk about the Civil War as though Africans are subhuman and Had nothing to contribute from the Civil War forward.

The Importance of Acknowledging Black Contributions

Like where do we get hip-hop music from? Where do we get R&B? Where do we get a stoplights all of these things like all of these wealths that have impacted the culture of the world of humanity? Came out of black communities and for you to talk about that in an exoticizing where not to give it its due or true history I mean Muhammad Ali all of these, you know great intellectuals that have come the first

sociologists like, you know, WB Du Bois and many of the early models of How to make cities happen, you know, you have to understand like Rondo here It's an area as you know The federal government used like the Federal Highway Act and in a domain in order to kind of erase over a thousand African American areas that were built up after white Americans said you can't stay with us You have to stay there. Nobody here can sell their house to you, right and with no resources very strapped They built some of the most economically viable Ethnic enclaves in this country only for so this is for those people who like the bootstrap theory for Policies to come through and destroy with airports or expressways their neighborhoods that that black wealth those black economic epicenters and cultural will was completely destroyed now if you can't see the wealth coming out of that and There's no talk about that.

Of course, you might need something like a little, you know, boost like black history month But that should be only the beginning it should never be the end and you know, it just really depends on the community

Final Recommendations

Yeah, I think it's helpful so I think to recap that obviously being willing to tackle your own I mean Or not being outwardly hypocritical or just outright hypocritical about it, you know Celebrating on one hand elements of black history with an agenda and then not being willing to tackle racism in your own community the second one is immigrant communities doing a better job of Actively tackling racism within their community and there's been some initiatives like there's like Muslim arc and some others much Trying to tackle that within the community right and being willing to have difficult conversations there. That's right giving voice to African Americans Within the community throughout the year not just that's right in February Yeah, and you come speak at our conference Can you come to pick it up and not only voice but using the epistemology is found in these communities to frame policy To guide actions to guide discourse within mosques, you know, it has to go beyond excellent I eat rice you eat bread you wear that I wear this it has to go deep much much much deeper You know, and you know defining the community's agendas I'm not just defining the community agenda from one vantage point, which is which tends to be, you know from a particular culture from a particular Socioeconomic class or whatever it is, but but broadening the community agenda. Absolutely

Conclusion and Work Information

Yeah, that's and shall I think that's uh, we're gonna be hopefully having more more papers from you We have to learn from you inshallah Some of these subjects about about some of these things and You know just like a look at I think it's really excellent and and Barak Allah Can you tell us about some of the stuff that you're doing outside of your penis? Are you curriculum the stuff that you're doing because you know with with curriculum the school isn't pipeline Alhamdulillah all praise you to Allah.