The Perversion of Islam

The Perversion of Islam: A Conversation with Sheikh Hamza Yusuf

Introduction: Understanding Modern Religious Extremism

Islamic jihadists, like the Christian right, are religious heretics. They are far more in common with each other than they do with co-believers. They each sanctify violence. They see evil as embodied in other races they must exterminate. They believe any action that brings them closer to paradise on earth, no matter how cruel or barbaric, is justified. They have been vomited up from the wreckage of predatory global capitalism and empire which has cast millions of the young adrift.

They find in their fundamentalist beliefs a sanctification of their rage and victimhood. Becoming a Christian warrior, a jihadist, a champion of an absolute and pure ideal is an intoxicating conversion that lifts believers out of profound despair. These converts create a binary universe divided between good and evil.

They believe they are anointed to change history by destroying power structures around them. They embrace a hyper-masculine violence as a cleansing agent for the world's contaminants, including those people who belong to other belief systems, races, and cultures. They are our new fascists.

The Rise of Islamophobia in America

In 2014, hate crimes in the United States decreased by 8%. That was the case across the board for all demographics except Muslims. In 2014, hate crimes against Muslims rose by 14%. However, hate crimes targeting the Muslim community haven't always been so common. In the year 2000, they made up about 1.9% of hate crimes motivated by religion, while anti-Semitic attacks made up the majority.

And while fortunately, over the years, the rate of anti-Semitic attacks have fallen, the number of hate crimes motivated by hatred of Muslims has risen to 16.1% of all religiously motivated hate crimes. But it's not just the fact that overall hate crimes are on the rise. Indeed, perhaps more concerning is the fact that according to polls, the overall sentiment in the United States towards Muslims is negative.

According to a Pew poll this year, half of all Americans believe some Muslims are anti-American. And while 50% of them still say that they would like the presidential candidates to be careful when talking about religion, 40% of them do say that they'd like the candidates to be critical and blunt when talking about Islam. Meanwhile, the candidates aren't shying away from doing so, with both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton characterizing attacks like the Orlando nightclub shooting earlier this year as radical Islamism.

A study by Georgetown University this year concluded that the campaign season has contributed to a rise in Islamophobic attacks in 2015 and beyond, tracing the increase to a surge in Islamophobic rhetoric in September of 2015, spearheaded by Republican nominee Donald Trump. But it's the media, too. The report concludes that while Western media often portrays Muslims as the perpetrators of violence, in an increasingly hostile political atmosphere, in reality, they're the victims.

Meet Sheikh Hamza Yusuf

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf is America's most important Islamic scholar. He is the president of Zaytuna College, located in Berkeley, California. He is also an advisor to Stanford University's Program in Islamic Studies and the Center for Islamic Studies at Berkeley's Graduate Theological Union. Sheikh Hamza is the author of seven books, including Agenda to Change Our Condition and Prayer of the Oppressed.

The New Fascism: Spiritual and Economic Vacuum

Chris Hedges: I had just read this article that I mentioned to you by Jay Sakai. It's an excerpt from his book Confronting Fascism, Discussion Documents for a Militant Movement. On the Web, it's called A Shock of Recognition. And he makes a very convincing case that the vacuum, both the spiritual and economic vacuum, that is sweeping across the globe because of neoliberalism and globalization, is giving birth to a new fascism. And he includes in his analysis these Islamic groups, or let's call them so-called Islamic groups, I would call them heretics, such as ISIS, al-Qaeda.

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: Well, I think that fascism, as you know, has a broad spectrum of meaning. But if we use it to mean the idea of people that believe that force is the only way in which an argument is truly made. You know, there's a famous statement about Mussolini that he got the trains to run on time for the first time in Italy. And the way he did it was by killing the engineers if they didn't actually get there on time.

And so it's also the conflation of an economic system, a corporate system, the corporatization of government, which was Mussolini's original vision. So I think there are definitely fascistic elements that have emerged in the Muslim world, but a lot of it is from, first of all, massive suppression over many decades with incredibly brutal governments that were fascistic by nature. And so, like the Purple Tyrant, when he's crushed, the one that crushes him becomes the tyrant.

Historical Context: The Impact of 1948

Chris Hedges: Let me go back, because pre-1948, you had very strong democratic movements throughout the Muslim world in countries like Syria, Lebanon. And then with the creation of the state of Israel, where you saw massive ethnic cleansing and the theft of lands of Palestinians. This is a country, Palestine, of course, that from the 7th century to 1948 had been Muslim. It gave credence to the proto-fascist, militaristic, anti-democratic forces. It was the best thing that ever happened to those forces.

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: I would totally agree. And I think that the tragedy in the Arab world is that they were very inspired by America. And I think many Arabs really had this bright future looking forward. Even Iran with Mossadegh and the D, you know, getting rid of the British influence and the colonial influences. So they saw America as this anti-colonial force in the world, the Wilsonian dream of a new world order where this sovereignty of the people would become realized.

And that's the tragedy, because Mossadegh in 1953, who, as you correctly point out, I think he worshipped Thomas Jefferson, was utterly betrayed. Right, by the Americans. By the CIA. Roosevelt, Kermit Roosevelt. Right, all the Shah's men. Right, all on behalf of British patriots.

The Unrequited Love Affair with America

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: So I think that from that point of view, there's been an unrequited love affair with America. And I think 9-11 sealed the deal, because I just was with an Egyptian taxi driver who said, you know, I asked him, were you here during 9-11? He said, yeah. And I said, what do you think it was? Well, he said, in Lebanon we say, hit me so I can beat the crap out of you. And so it becomes an excuse, really, to brutalize people that really had nothing to do with anything.

The Assault on Traditional Sufi Islam

Chris Hedges: One of the tragedies that I've seen throughout the Muslim world is the assault against traditional Sufi Islam. And I think it's fairly well documented that Wahhabism, which has fed ideologically many of these movements we see, and of course with Saudi money, was certainly at its inception promoted by Western interests. I think during the Ottoman Empire, the British stoked Wahhabism as a way to fight against Sufi influence, and of course the current ruling Saudi family has embraced it.

We saw the oil deals in the early 1930s. Even to the point of American oil companies paying for the publication of Wahhabist literature. And because of the financial resources, this has poisoned much of the religious discourse, I think you would agree, throughout not only the Muslim world, but even beyond.

Tradition versus Traditionalism

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: Well, I think what's happened, I think the traditionalists, what we call the traditionalists, which certainly Sufism was a large part of classical Islamic tradition. The traditionalists have never dealt with the fact that they ossified into a very sterile tradition with a lot of, it was no longer a living tradition. In Catholicism, they differentiate between tradition and traditionalism.

The tradition is the living faith of the dead. Traditionalism is the dead faith of the living. And in many ways, they are, this is what happened. And so there were reactions to that. What's called Wahhabism, they don't like to be called Wahhabis, but what's called Wahhabism was actually a type of Protestant reformist movement in Arabia that eventually allied with a political force, Al Saud. And so the religious and the political became allied in this.

And because of the petrodollars, they were able to spread a very different type of Islam that most of the Muslim world was comfortable with. But a couple of things that I have to say, and I think this is really important. The scholars of the Saudi Arabian kingdom have consistently been against suicide bombing.

The Issue of Suicide Bombing

And so many of the African-American youth or Hispanic youth are pulled into the... or skinheads, white, some disenfranchised white youth that are pulled into the white gang mentality. And, of course, if we look at the history of many of the people who have carried out acts of terrorism in Europe, they come out of a petty and often... Petty crime. Criminal class.

Prison Conversions and Radicalization

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: Exactly, criminal class. I have said the same thing. The same thing is true here. Many of these people... We have a large conversion rate in prisons. And if those people aren't nurtured and cared for because they've grown up in very difficult situations, and if they're given a rhetoric of rage, if they're given a divinely legitimized version of reality that otherizes all of these people, they can become an incredibly dangerous force. And that's happened.

The Exaggerated Threat

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: But, again, I want to point out that when you look at the numbers, these are very small numbers. It's so exaggerated. We have 15,000 people die every year from low tire pressure in America. And the numbers of people that have gone overseas from America, you're looking at less than 1,000 people. If you look at the overall Muslim community, it's probably close to 10 million with the children. It's a very insignificant number, and yet it's blown out of with the...

Demonization as a Precursor to Violence

Chris Hedges: Let's talk about that, because it has been used, especially since 9-11, to stoke what I find to be a very frightening Islamophobia that includes within mainstream discourse a demonization of Muslims.

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: Right. Well, you know, because I think of all people, you probably know more than anybody in this country what happens when you demonize people, because it's always the predecessor to great violence against those people. And I think you've seen that in many places around the world.

And so it is deeply troubling. I have some optimism, because I'm always struck by the fact that there is a profound goodness that resides in the hearts of a lot of people in this country. And what I saw after 9-11, because I actually predicted all of this, I thought it was going to happen within one or two years after 9-11.

The Machinery of Hate

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: The fact that it took over 10 years of an incredibly massive machine... You're talking about the kind of hate talk... The hate talk. It took a long time to transform...

Chris Hedges: But it did in Nazi Germany as well, towards the Jews.

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: I know. That's true. It took... Hitler, between 1933 and 1938, he mentioned the Jews three times, according to Kody Kunz. But don't... I know, but I think also the Jews... There was a deep problem,

and Mark Twain addresses that in Concerning the Jews. There was a deep anti-Semitism in the German psyche prior to Hitler.

Chris Hedges: But not a lethal anti-Semitism.

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: That's true. I mean, anti-Semitism came with Luther. Trust me, I'm deeply disturbed by it. And sometimes I sit around with some of my Muslim friends and say, do you think we're like Jews in 1933? Like, how bad can it get? I mean, I really do every once in a while say that.

The Prophetic Warning

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: And we have a tradition of our prophet that said:

(Sahih Bukhari 3456, Sahih Muslim 2669 - Reference to following the path of previous nations, including the Jews)

Well, I don't want to see Muslims end up in these internment camps, but the Japanese internment happened. And if there was a bad strike here, a dirty bomb or something, it's...

Chris Hedges: But don't you think rhetorically we've laid the ground for that?

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: Oh, absolutely. I'm convinced that if a 9-11 event happened today, we would not see the type of responses that we saw. There won't be any flowers at the mosques.

Legal Framework for Oppression

Chris Hedges: I, as you know, sued President Obama over Section 1021 of the National Defense Authorization Act, which overturns the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act, prohibiting the military from carrying out domestic policing. And, Judge, we won in the Southern District Court of New York. The Obama administration appealed in the Second Circuit.

They refused to accept my standing, didn't hear the case, because it is patently unconstitutional. But Judge Catherine B. Forrest, who ruled in our favor when she wrote her opinion, which is worth reading on the Internet, said that this opens the way for the government to criminalize an entire category of people, and she brought up the 110,000 Japanese Americans who were interned, stripped of their rights, U.S. citizens, in World War II.

So, legally, we've already created... But rhetorically, we've created the conditions, and legally, we've created the conditions.

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: Right. Yeah. And apparently, in order for that to be overturned, it has to happen again, because that's never really been dealt with, the Japanese internment.

Chris Hedges: Well, it now is... The government can, in essence, if you read Section 1021, carry out extraordinary rendition on the streets of American cities, hold people in military facilities, strip them of due process, i.e., they don't see a lawyer. Or people don't realize what's happened, I mean, the type of changes that have happened.

Faith in Divine Justice

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: I think one of the things that we, as believers, certainly, you know, we believe that there's another force working in the world greater than their force.

Chris Hedges: Some absurdity of faith.

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: Well, maybe so, but... A leap of faith. But I do believe that... that we worship a just God who tempers His justice with great benevolence, and that... that these things do have a reckoning.

They do have a reckoning. That civilizations cannot... justice, even if it's the type of relative justice of the world, justice is what enables and empowers civilizations. And as they lose that striving for the truth...

The Quranic Principle of Justice

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: You know, one of the things the Qur'an says:

"We don't destroy a people as long as there is amongst them people fighting for the truth."

(Quran 11:117 - "And your Lord would not destroy the cities unjustly while their people were reformers")

And so, a society can be unjust, but if you have within it people that are fighting against that injustice, that's one of the reasons God will sustain that people. And I think there are still a lot of people in this country, and you're certainly one of them, that is speaking that truth. And as long as we have those people, I think that we have some hope and optimism that there is that divine force that will sustain us.

The Power of the Oppressed

Chris Hedges: Well, in secular terms, that's Václav Havel's The Power of the Powerless, in which he uses that phrase, living in truth. The Prayer of the Oppressed.

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: The oppressed have a power that they don't realize. And the numbers are on our side, despite the fact that the military might is on the other side, but that military might, until they get their robotics in place, which is a terrifying... And you know, C.S. Lewis predicted transhumanism, predicted the abolition of

man, I think is one of the most important books for people to read, because another one is Lewis Mumford, which nobody reads anymore. The Pentagon of Power. Mumford saw this stuff coming.

The Creeping Villainy

Chris Hedges: We talked about Kierkegaard's The Creeping Villainy. Vice is a monster of frightful mean, as to be hated needs but to be seen, but seen to awe familiar with her face, we first pity, then endure, then embrace.

Conclusion: The Psychology of Terror

Revenge is the psychological engine of all campaigns of terror. Victims are the blood currency. Their corpses are used to sanctify acts of indiscriminate slaughter. Those defined as the enemy are rendered inhuman. They are not worthy of empathy or justice.

Pity and grief are felt exclusively for our own. We vow to eradicate a dehumanized mass that embodies absolute evil. Christian fanatics embrace the concept of holy war as fervently as Islamic fanatics.

Our crusades are matched by the concept of jihad. Once religion is used to sanctify murder, there are no rules. It is a battle between light and dark, good and evil, Satan and God. Rational discourse is banished, and the sleep of reason, as Goya said, always brings forth monsters.