Islam - Jihad & Extremism
By Hamza Yusuf | 2026-01-16T00:52:52.162338+00:00 | Topic: Iman
Islam - Jihad & Extremism
Doha Debates on Extremism and Terrorism
Introduction
Ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, a very good afternoon to you and welcome to this special session of the Doha Debates sponsored by the Qatar Foundation. It coincides with a meeting here of the Alliance of Civilizations, a UN initiative set up to combat extremism wherever it appears. And that's our issue for today.
But who can define extremism for the rest of the world? Look at the difficulties in defining terrorism. And, as we've seen in the current controversy over the Danish cartoons, who's going to listen to any pleas for calm or moderation? Just some of the questions that are going to be asked today by our student audience, coming as they do from many countries, but predominantly from the Arab world.
Panel Introduction
Well, as you can see, we have a distinguished panel bracing itself to respond to their questions.
Desmond Tutu, who, as Archbishop of Cape Town, was one of the chief architects of South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission and a Nobel Peace Prize winner. Diana Butto, a lawyer by training and a former legal advisor to the Palestine Liberation Organization during peace negotiations with Israel. She also helped to set up an outreach program speaking directly to ordinary Israelis about the effects of occupation.
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, a leading and outspoken Muslim scholar. He travels the world giving talks on Islam and is the founder of the Zaytuna Institute, dedicated to the revival of traditional Islamic study methods and the sciences of Islam. And Dr. John Esposito, professor and founding director of the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University. He's also served as president of the Middle East Studies Association of North America and is a prolific author with some 30 titles to his name.
Ladies and gentlemen, our panel, and welcome to all of you. What we're going to try and do, first of all, and maybe this is very ambitious, but we're going to try and get the issue of definitions out of the way so that it doesn't dog our discussions for the rest of the afternoon.
Defining Extremism and Terrorism
So could I please ask Nasser Al-Thani to give us the first question? I would like to see an internationally agreed upon definition towards life extremism and terrorism. Does the panel think this could ever be possible?
Desmond Tutu, can we get definitions of extremism and terrorism? We haven't had much luck in doing that so far, have we? Extremism is when you do not allow for a different point of view, and when you hold your view
as being quite exclusive, when you don't allow for the possibility of difference. My father used to say, don't raise your voice, improve your argument.
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf? That's a real problem, defining extremism. I think it's maybe a little bit like obscenity. I know it when I see it, but it's one of those nebulous terms.
But without a definition of extremism, how do you know what you're combating? I think the best definition that I can come up with is Caleb Carr's, which is that terrorism is the use of violence against civilians in order that that population that's being aggressed upon forces their government to the table of negotiation or to some change in their policies.
Diana Butto, definition of extremism? I think it's very difficult to come up with a definition of extremism because, again, it implies that there's a norm, and unfortunately we see that norms are shifting and changing. I think it's important to understand what the cause of it is rather than to make a definition of what it is.
But it's not an abstract concept. It's propagated by people, isn't it? It is absolutely propagated by people, just in the same way that terrorism is propagated by people, but so is war. And unfortunately we've gotten to a point where terrorism is the new bad word rather than the word war.
There was a time when I was growing up when the word war or apartheid or those sorts of concepts were much worse than terrorism. And I think now, because we don't know exactly who it is that's carrying out these acts or why it is that they're carrying out these acts, or we suppose that we don't know, that that's why it becomes a much more looming term than that of war.
John Esposito, are we starting with a muddle where definitions are concerned? Is that a major setback? We can come up with an abstract definition, but the only way we can get, when we want to get specific, then we have to look at a specific political or religious context.
Israeli Government and Extremism
Okay, well we have a second questioner who wants to get quite specific. Omar Aluba, could we have your question please? Does the panel consider the Israeli government an extremist in that it kills innocent Muslim women and children in Palestine?
Diana Butto, do you want to take that? Yes. That was a yes to taking it and a yes to the question.
Yes, I do consider that the Israeli government is an extremist government in that it has maintained an occupation now over the Palestinians for close to 39 years. It has carried out immense acts of aggression against the Palestinians, including the killing of innocent civilians, the demolition of homes, the deportation of Palestinians, the denial of natural resources, and most importantly, the denial of freedom. All of this has been done for political purpose, and the political purpose is to try to rid historic Palestine of the Palestinians in order to create Eretz Israel or larger Israel. So yes, I do consider it extremist.
Do you consider Hamas an extremist movement as well for blowing up civilians on buses? I think that the acts that Hamas is carrying out would, in fact, in my definition of extremist, be labeled extremist. But I think it is important to understand the context in which international law and international relations take place, which is there is a powerful and there's a powerless. And it's by and large the powerful who are making the definitions to be used against those who are powerless.
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf. Certainly in their policies vis-à-vis the Palestinian state, I would have to absolutely assert that they're an extreme government. Collective guilt is not recognized by any law tradition on this planet that has any weight. And so destroying people's houses because they happen to be related to somebody that supposedly committed a crime or committed a crime is an extreme and gross aggression against all sense of international justice.
So you would want to see the AOC group going to the Israeli government and saying on behalf of the United Nations that this is reprehensible behavior and you should stop it? Absolutely.
Mutual Acceptance and Democracy
Rabbi Schneier, would you like to come in on this? We can get a microphone to you, please. There's a very basic premise and the basic premise is mutual acceptance or in my words to live and let live. I want you to live as a sovereign, independent state of Palestine and I want Israel to be a sovereign, independent Israel. Mutual acceptance. It's the only way to go.
I tell you, young people, it's in your hands because you control the future. We're the past. You control the future. If you reach out to one another in terms of mutual acceptance, you can build a glorious future and that's the way to go. And I'm convinced that this conflict will come to an end just as any other conflict.
Can you have mutual acceptance though of people who commit atrocities or other extremist acts? The way to go is really respect for the other. Respect for human life. Respect for the stranger. We talk a lot about democracy. If you want to have a definition of democracy, how the majority treats the minority. Whether it's politically or religiously speaking, that is a barometer. How the majority treats the minority.
Okay. Thank you very much. Diana, can you live with that? With the definition of democracy? Yes. I think it's a test of a strong democracy. A litmus test is how is it that we do treat the minorities. This is something that I've always been advocating and looking towards. How is it that we treat the weakest elements of our own society? Are they treated with respect, with dignity? Or are they treated as though they're second class citizens?
And unfortunately in the case of the Palestinians, they haven't been treated with dignity or with respect. There are Palestinians who are citizens of Israel, who are minorities, who are second class citizens, who are not treated with any dignity, respect, and above all have been denied their freedom.
All right. Can I just give a reminder that we do want to hear also from you, our student participants, and also from the UN group as well. Please, if you have any feelings, do share them with us.
Religious Extremism Versus Political Extremism
Ah, lady in the fourth row. We'll get a microphone to you, please. I guess you're being, you know, trying to define what extremism is and what's terrorism. I think that there is a difference between the political extremism and religious extremism. I think that religious extremism is going beyond the fundamentalism.
I mean, fundamentalism is adopting each, for example, for Muslims, adopting the Sharia as it is and doing it exactly the way God has asked us to do it. And there, for me, religious extremism is going beyond that. It's trying to impose it on others to do, you know, to be like them. And it's before terrorism. I think terrorism is linked with violence. Extremism, if you're an extremist, you're not necessarily a terrorist. This is what I think personally.
And I think that political extremism is like wanting to impose your opinion on the other parties, like in a government or...
Okay. Well, I mean, I think I agree with that. In terms of extremism, for a lot of people in the West now, in a society informed by secularism, you know, the fact that I pray and wash five times a day would be seen as obsessive-compulsive disorder to some people, you know, like a pathology. So I think people will consider a lot of Muslims religious extremists because they pray by the minimum five times a day.
For a Muslim, it's actually... It's interesting. In Islam, the definition of extremism includes also lack of religion. So people that are not religious are seen as extremists in that they're not fulfilling a basic human function. So again, it's about definitions and who's defining them. And I think different cultures will define things very differently.
Power and Framing the Discourse
And labeling theory, you know, Foucault says ultimately it is the powerful that define things. And right now, Western civilization has an immense amount of sovereignty on the planet. And so in that sense, it has framed the discourse. And all of us are often stuck in this position of reacting to an already framed discourse and not allowing our own terms of debate to be allowed into the discourse.
So we have to constantly define ourselves. I'm not an extremist. I'm not a terrorist. I'm not this. I'm not that. As opposed to being able to be in a more positive position, which is always taken by the powerful. They're the ones that tell us who they are. And they force us to tell them who we're not.
But I think the danger of religious extremism can be, even though it's not necessarily violent, to get back to the archbishop's definition, when it becomes exclusivist, in which it basically says, not only is my faith right, but your faith is absolutely wrong. And not only is my faith right, but my faith position within my faith is right. And so another Muslim who disagrees with me is wrong.
Then you're moving. You're in a very dangerous position here because you're bordering on what I would call a theology of hate. That kind of mentality can easily be used by some, and it has been used by people like Osama bin Laden, to legitimate military action at a certain point. You can easily slip over the line once you're into that realm of what I would call a theology of hate. And we see that with elements of the Christian right, the Jewish right, and with elements of the Muslim right. I'm avoiding the word fundamentalism here. But I think you know what I mean.
The Danish Cartoons Controversy
I want to move on to one of the most controversial issues of all, which is the Danish cartoons. And we have a question from Lenin Diaz. How can a Muslim ever explain to a Christian the reason of the uproar over the cartoons? I am a Christian and I understand that the prophet should never be drawn. But I don't understand why so many people have to be killed from it. And if so, aren't there any Muslims who think this is extreme?
Okay, you say you understand that there shouldn't be a drawing of the prophet, but why would so many people want to kill because of it? Aren't there any Muslims who think that this is extreme?
First of all, I think that the reactions in a lot of places were certainly extreme reactions. I mean, violence. Nothing would warrant the violence that occurred in Pakistan or Nigeria or other places. Over 40 people have been killed as a result.
On the other hand, I think one of the things that the West has, particularly Western Europe, I think it's probably less so in the United States. But it's very, very difficult for people to realize now that religious identity in the Muslim world is far more important than racial identity. And we do not tolerate racial denigration in the West. It's considered completely unacceptable and it's condemned. On the other hand, religion is just fair game.
And I think what we need to do globally is conflate race and religion. That identity, because at the core of race is identity. And at the core of a true religious experience is identity. I am identified as a believer first and foremost. If you denigrate my religion, you are doing something far more egregious to me than attacking my race. And that's where the response is elicited.
Legitimate Anger and Extremism
Let me bring in Desmond Tutu here. How do you stop legitimate anger turning to extremism? In the case of the cartoons. I myself would have appealed to our Muslim sisters and brothers having been offended as they were. And I did. I was among those who did make the appeal for the demonstrations to have been dignified and peaceful.
But I think we, particularly Christians, are incredibly arrogant to say to someone, you are hurt. And actually sometimes even suggest that you have no reason to be hurt. I mean, how can you be hurt just by a cartoon? And I think it's an incredible arrogance on anyone's part.
The Deeper Roots of Muslim Rage
John Esposito. I think that there are a couple of things that come into play here. I think, one, clearly, there was a strong religious motivation to that reaction. As somebody who studied with Muslim teachers and mostly Muslim students, although at a secular university in America 35 years ago, that was driven home to me.
But I think the reality of it is, was that the cartoon and the reaction to the cartoon, the roots of that rage and anger run much deeper. And it has to do with the political and social situation of many Muslims in many parts of the world. And particularly, among other things, setting aside the question of the Arab-Israeli conflict, looking at the fact that for many Muslims the war against global terrorism increasingly looks like a war against Islam in the Muslim world. The sense of dependency, humiliation, et cetera. And then to see your most sacred symbol ridiculed.
It would be different if you had the cartoons dealing with Zarqawi or Osama bin Laden. But the idea that one would associate, as it were, this most sacred symbol of Islam, the Prophet, with acts of terrorism, is in effect saying this is deliberately, this is a deliberate attempt to provoke.
Can we hear from some other voices around the room? Yusuf, next to you. Do you think Muslims overreacted? Or took the cartoons too personally?
I took it personally. But the problem is how they reacted. Because things could have, like in Qatar, for example, some places chose to boycott the Danish products. And this is a good way. But in Lebanon, they burned the Danish embassy. And they burned also a church. And this is just wrong. Because they could have dealt with it in another way.
Collective Guilt and the Danish Boycott
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, what do you think of it? Well, I personally, I felt that the boycott was basically collective guilt. It's the same thing that we're troubled about in other places. And so I personally was very opposed to the reaction against the Danish embassy.
The Syrian ambassador to, the Danish ambassador to Syria, who just left a few months ago, is a Muslim Dane, who rode his bike from Riyadh to Mecca to do Umrah. A very wonderful man, Ambassador Olsen. And he was just outraged by that response. And it actually harmed a lot of Arab business people who have trade and commerce. So I just feel that it was completely unfair to blame the Danish.
I wanted to say, may I say what I wanted to say? Please. Yes, thank you very much. Who am I to deny you? Freedom of speech.
In fact, you want very little to provoke reaction when you are carrying the burden of an anguish. When you have a resentment at being humiliated and treated as if you were nothing. We are constantly going to find things that happen, outbursts and you see. But, I mean, why? And many would say, yes, no, we didn't think the reaction should have been so and so. But that reaction is not related to the immediate cause. It is, I am hurting. Please, I am hurting. I have been treated as if I were nothing. Can you take note of me?
All right, thank you very much.
Dialogue Only on Western Terms
Let's go on to another question. This was from Aisha Waka, please. Could we have your question? When the Danish government eventually met with Muslims in Denmark, they chose only to meet with the moderate Muslims. Isn't some of the extremism in Islam a result of the frustration born out of the West desire to have dialogue only on its own terms?
John Esposito, is that a fair comment? Yes. I think that part of the problem that we have historically, I've seen it over the years, is that we hold conferences, whether it's governments, whether it's non-government organizations and universities, and often we talk about people who are not in the room. We don't invite them in the room. The alternative voices.
To give you the most bizarre example, post 9-11, from my point of view, is a situation in the United States at times, when you will get a phone call and somebody will say, we want to meet with a group of moderate Muslims, can you give me a list? As if it's a short list. Or we have a group here that wants to go up to Congress and they're Muslim leaders, can you look it over and let us know whether or not they're moderate Muslims?
The reality of it is that what we have to learn when we deal with situations, is that we have to talk to a broad spectrum of the population. So if there's a dialogue, dialogue implies that it's going on between two people. And
if it's about a hot issue, you need to be talking about the people who are at the heart of the hot issue, and not simply talking about...
Do you find the West picking and choosing its interlocutors, and only the moderate ones? Absolutely. In fact, that was the point I was going to make, is that oftentimes, particularly for those who live in the Middle East, that our interlocutors are chosen for us, rather than the ability to choose the interlocutor.
And hence the case right now with the Palestinian elections, where the Palestinians have overwhelmingly chosen Hamas, and yet there is nobody who's willing to talk to Hamas, despite that this is now the voice of the Palestinians, in terms of the Palestinian Authority. And so there's means to go around that, let's talk to this person, he's much more favorable, we'll see eye to eye with him. But what they're doing, in fact, is they're actually ignoring a large census, or a large segment of the population, for whom Hamas does...
You think they're ignoring them, or just talking to them quietly behind the scenes? All the evidence suggests they are talking to them quietly behind the scenes. They probably are talking to them quietly behind the scenes, for reasons that I think are not necessarily in order to engage in dialogue, but to calm violence down more than anything else. But I think in so doing, what they're doing is alienating a large segment of the population, whether it's in Palestine or other parts of the Middle East or Arab world.
The Lack of Central Authority in Islam
All right, there's a lady two rows from the back, who had her hand up for a while. Muslims responded so chaotically to the cartoon, didn't probably have a clear idea of Islam as a religion itself, of Islam being a spiritual religion. So I personally see it as a failure of the Muslim leaders. I think that if the Ummah was led more towards a specific point, by the actual Muslim leaders, the response would not have been that chaotic, because Islam itself does not teach extremism.
Is the problem a lack of central authority in Islam? Islam gives authority to people like Mullahs, and so if only those people took part, and they led the population towards the right direction, I think there wouldn't have been such a chaotic response.
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, the lack of central authority in Islam. It's a major problem, because Islam, in its classical formation, recognizes the idea of a caliphate. In the absence of a caliphate, it's just open game in terms of religious authority. So it's a real problem, and we're suffering from it.
Great teaching institutions that produce really high caliber scholars, no longer exist. And so people in the Arab world know, you get good grades, you go to medical school. Great grades, medical school. Good grades, engineering. Reasonable, agriculture, political science. Really bad grades, you go to Islamic Sharia college.
And so we've got a lot of third rate, unfortunately. And with respect to people and their abilities, but we have a lot of people that are just not up for the level of challenge in the religious sphere.
Are Extremists Ever Right?
All right, we'll move to another question, please, from Muna Babikir. Do you think extremists, like all extremists, are wrong, or are they right at some point?
Diana Butto, you seem to suggest that they could be right at some point. At least you were offering understanding to some of them a little earlier. I think I go back to my initial point, which is I think it's very difficult to define what extremism is, because it implies that there is a norm, and that norm is normally set by the more powerful party.
That said, I think that it's understandable why certain acts take place that people would define as extremism. And it's understandable, particularly in the place where I live and where I see such acts taking place, I do understand why it's happening. It's happening in a political context. It's not happening in the absence of a political context. It's happening because people have been denied their freedom for such a long period of time.
Okay, Desmond Tutu, you were labelled as an extremist in your time, weren't you? Plenty of times. I think we are. All of us. All of us.
I think, I mean, again, Professor Esposito was right in saying, I mean, contexts are important. But the question was, are they right? Yes, I think, I mean, that there is a measure of truth, and often a great measure of truth. It is, it is, it tends to say, it is the only truth. And everything else is wrong.
And so, yeah, I would just hope that one day we can become the kind of people who say, yeah, I don't actually agree with you, but I, I will defend your right to your point of view, and I won't want to clobber you for holding your point of view. If we could, what an incredible world, how incredibly rich this world would be if we got to accepting that none of us can ever be totally self-sufficient.
The way God created us was deliberately to create us as those who need one another. We're created for interdependence. You have gifts that I don't have. And I have gifts you don't have. And you could almost see God rubbing God's hands and saying, voila, now you know that you need the other in order to be fully complete.
Treating the Root Causes
All right, there's a gentleman up there. Could you stand up, please, and we'll get a microphone to you, and then we'll come to the panel. Thank you very much. I have a question, actually, to the Alliance group. Related to this. Yeah, of course, it's related.
I would like to see you, when treating the problems, for example, when you're treating the disease and illness, you don't want to ameliorate the problems. You don't want to remove the problems or lessen them. You want to treat it. You want to eradicate it.
All this time, we're talking about extreme actions. We're talking about Muslims going extreme and killing. I mean, of course it's wrong. We're talking about Palestinians blowing up innocent civilians. We're talking about why don't we talk about why is that happening?
Why don't we talk about, for example, what happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina from 1992 to 1995? Why did that happen? I would like to state, and this can be argued, but as was suggested on the floor, the acts of extremism come from two directions. Either from those who are extremely anguished and are trying to achieve their freedom and rights, or from those who have huge amounts of greed.
So, ladies and gentlemen, I would truly and honestly like to see the world treating the problems at their roots, not actions that come as a result of them.
How would you suggest the UN group, therefore, goes about its work? I'm currently studying, so I'm acquiring intelligence. I'm learning how to treat these problems. I have my own opinion.
You have a chance to give them some advice. I would like the world to realize why Muslims are angry. I mean, this is, as was suggested, it's been bottling up. There's a lot of oppressions of Muslims all around the world, and not only Muslims. I mean, Christians also. As you said, minorities. How we treat minorities is a degree of our democracy, and I'm sorry to say, but I've experienced it firsthand. I'm a Bosnian, and I've seen, even though I was a majority, I have seen how I was treated.
A Two-Pronged Approach
John Esposito. I take very seriously what you said, and I think there has to be a kind of two-pronged approach. I think, one, you do have to look at what the root causes are, and often people don't want, the way people get around dealing with serious situations of injustice, is to just say they're a bunch of extremists, as if, therefore, they're just irrational. So you have to deal with root causes, and I think that members of the alliance certainly are concerned about this, as many in the room are.
But I also think that something that, to follow up on what Archbishop Tutu said, and also what the rabbi said earlier, there's the positive constructive side. If we're going to talk about creating a better world, and it's for your generation to do it. On the one hand, when you see injustice, you have to look at what are the political, socioeconomic root causes.
At the same time, we have to begin to promote a world that takes globalization and pluralism very seriously. A world in which we really do be able to say we can agree to disagree. A world which can say you can hold your beliefs as firmly as you want, religious, political, and I can hold mine, but I can also understand where you're coming from, I can make that effort, and I can respect your right to believe that way. So it's got to be a two-pronged approach, it seems to me. In a sense, an immediate, as well as a long-term.
A Lost Generation?
Alright, let's go to a question from Aisha Bhatt, please. Do you not feel that a whole generation has been lost to extremism, because extremism is seen as a logical response to the injustices suffered by Muslims at the hands of the West? And do you also not feel that until those injustices are addressed, extremism will remain a part of the Islamic identity?
One of the things that's really overwhelming for the Muslims and why you're getting really radical responses is the culture of the West, which was not really, it never colonized the Muslim world in any real way. There was a military presence, but the Muslims still had their culture intact. Now you have a real onslaught of culture and there's an incredible amount of cognitive dissonance amongst Muslims and a lot of the more religiously informed, they just don't know how to deal, how do you deal with MTV?
You know, how does a devout Muslim deal with MTV and the fact that his children are watching this? I just, I don't, you know, there's a beautiful Arab poem, you know, I'll just... We're living in an age of such extremes that the one who's not driven mad by it is not sane.
Let me go back to the question and ask you whether you feel that the generation has been lost. Could you stand up, please? Well, partly, I mean like he said, through MTV and everything, everyone is influenced by these things, especially through Western clothes and stuff like that. So, yeah, partly it has been lost. I mean, we try to keep it, we try to keep our Islamic culture in there, but with influences like from TV and from Western culture, things keep, I mean like, they keep on coming in and you can't stop that, you can't stop the changes. So...
Fostering Meaningful Debate
This gentleman, four rows back. Can we get a microphone? Could you stand up, please, sir? I don't think the youth today have meaningful avenues and forums where they can carry out meaningful debate and discussions much like this forum here. I think the main point that we should bring out is that we should foster an environment that encourages this debate and not necessarily saying that, I agree that you're right, I think what Mr. Tutu was saying, but I think that you're wrong, but in a respectful way.
And that we can... For example... I think you're an idiot, but in a respectful way. For example, for example, let's say to a Muslim, we can never accept that the trinity is a truth, but somebody may hold that to be a truth, but at the end of the day, we should be able to walk away as human beings, as brothers in humanity. I don't think that eliminating this form of extremism is necessarily accepting that every truth is correct, it's just fostering an environment that allows debate.
Desmond Tutu, you want to come in here? It's fantastic that you care! And I would say, yes, I mean you have many things that are against you, but one of the most wonderful things about young people yourselves is that you are such idealistic creatures. And why you care, why you are outraged, is your belief that this world can be, in fact, a better place. And I'm glad that there are young people like you.
I am appalled, I mean, that you should be talking of lost generations and things of that kind. You ain't lost generations, you are fantastic people! And I'm glad you're around and I wish I was maybe like... No, no, no, no. I'm... You're going to hold that thought. I really want to say this to you. You are God's most outstanding collaborators for turning this world into a better place.
Question there from the panel. When I talk to British or American youth, what I say is that perhaps my generation can't sort this out. And you are young enough to have a new idea to change the world by thinking critically and participating. We should give you more avenues to speak and to think and make your views heard. We've been very concerned about this on the Alliance. And it's been wonderful to listen to you today with views that you can share with us. But go on thinking. Don't ever stop questioning.
The Role of Muslim Women in Fighting Extremism
Alright. I want to go to a question which actually follows up exactly on that thought. And this is from Amber Tariq. What do you believe that Muslim women can do within their communities to fight the rise of extremism within this region? What can Muslim women do in their homes and in their communities to fight the rise of extremism?
Thank you. Women can do a number of things. One is to be engaged in their communities and in their societies.
Engaged in what way? Engaged in all different types of levels. Some examples. For example, on a political level. Women's involvement does not have to end at a certain area and begin in a certain area. For example, women can get involved in the political spectrum. I've been involved in the political arena.
Women can get involved in social arenas. Community service. Charitable organizations. They can get involved even just on the level of home maintenance. Of maintaining and raising children who are going to then become also productive members of society. The real challenge is, is that space going to be provided to women or are they constantly going to have to fight for that arena to be able to have their voices heard?
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf. Advice to Muslim women in their home. I think it's important. There needs to be deeply nurturing environments, but there also needs to be, from the husbands and the brothers, there also needs to be that nurturing.
The Quran says (وَإِذَا الْمَوْءُودَةُ سُئِلَتْ - Quran 81:8) when the daughters ask why she was buried alive, there's more ways to bury a woman alive than physically. A lot of our women, I think, are buried alive in the Islamic community. That needs to change.
Cultural Restrictions on Women
Could we hear from some young Muslim women, perhaps, involved in their communities in fighting extremism? Anybody who particularly feels they should get involved in fighting extremism? Can we hear from anybody who might have a view on that? Yes, you.
I'd like to get involved, but the thing is I don't know how I could get involved without going around offending someone, or within the rights of my freedom. With my dad, it was very nice of him to allow me to come here today, but I don't know how much further I could actually go without offending anyone or being allowed to.
This is a common problem, isn't it? I think it is. Our societies, our Western society is very different in a lot of ways. The Arabic word for woman is hurma, which is like a sanctuary. It's something seen by the Arab as something you protect. The worst thing you can call an Arab male is a dayyuth, which is somebody who has no concern for women.
Traditionally, the Arab culture is a very chivalrous culture. Unfortunately, chivalry can become something else. It can transform into quite negative this mad jealousy and this kind of insane desire for this authoritarian despotic model, which is very common. I think that we need to undermine that model, because I think that the Prophet Muhammad was not a despotic person.
His women spoke back to him, and he did not rebuke them for it. Aisha is a startling and stunning woman, if you study her life. His wife was a very vibrant woman. If we study the early women of Islam, you will really find that they were dynamic women. They were out there leading armies. They were fighting in battles. They were establishing charity organizations.
Over 40% of the Ottoman endowments are endowed by women. We have this as records. Sheikha Moza, I think, is very much in that tradition, and we honor her for that.
Are there any other women who would like to get more involved in combating extremism but don't feel they can? They feel restricted? Can we get a microphone to you, a lady who is three rows down?
With me, it's probably cultural restrictions. I personally come from Pakistan, where you have people of religious, but on the other hand, when religion allows a certain thing, the culture comes back and says, no, you're not allowed to do that. So, for me, culture has a bigger influence.
I'm currently involved in the Reach Out to Asia team, and I might be going to Pakistan. My parents allow me, but on the other hand, my other family members are viewing it as a bad thing, me, as a female, going with males alone in another country. So, it's more of a cultural thing as well when it comes over religious beliefs.
Women Empowering Themselves
If you look at some Muslim women today, is that there are two general ways you can be empowered. One is to wait for men to empower you. The other is to realize that part of the way in which you become empowered is to empower yourself. And that's one of the, I think, the issues that you struggle with.
There's a really important point. The Quranic language was almost entirely male, until one of the women actually complained about it. She went to the Prophet and she said, why are these verses all talking about men? All the verses that came after that complaint were men and women, believing men, believing women.
And so, I think it does take, I mean, I agree that it's going to take some effort, but it also needs to be done with cultural sensitivity. So, it's not, you know, it doesn't create fitna or social disorder. And there are models across the Muslim world. So, I mean, if you look around, there are Muslim women there who demonstrate this form of empowerment, whether it's Quran study, whether it's prayer groups, whether it's NGOs, whether it's education, you know, you can see that.
You can see it here, if you look at the role of women, the emerging role of women in this society.
Will Extremists Listen to the UN?
Alright, we've come to a question which puts the UN on the spot here. The question is from Grant Gunther. Could we have your question, please? Since extremist groups operating in the world today pay so little heed to what world leaders say about extremism, on what basis does the UN think they will listen to this new forum?
Would you like to have a final word? I think the world is aware it is in a mess. And because it is in a mess, they are going to have to listen. See, this group is not monochrome. This group does not come from one country. This group does not represent just one philosophy, religion.
It's people with very diverse views, and you would have thought that they would not even make it to first base in terms of being able to understand one another. So one is able to say, you know, an enemy is a friend waiting to be made. And that's not just a facile sort of slogan. It is for real. And if the world doesn't know that it is in a mess, wow.
Okay, let me ask the question if he's encouraged by your answer. Are you encouraged by that answer? I'm encouraged by that, but I'm also encouraged by some other ideas in the room, of like, you know, trying to foster talking between other peoples in the region to try and understand one another, because I think that's one of the main problems is that people don't understand and don't accept what they don't accept they fear.
And so I think combating that will help us resolve a whole bunch of the problems that we're facing today.
Closing Remarks
All right, we're running out of time, and my panel is telling me that they have to get away. It just remains for me to thank all of our distinguished panelists for coming today. Thank you very much to the audience for coming. And hope to see you again. Thank you very much indeed.
Thank you. Goodbye. Thank you.