Islam and Woman

Islam and Women

Introduction

As-salamu alaykum and welcome to the American Muslim Hour. I'm Asima Kachoum. Today we are speaking with Sheikh Hamza Yusuf about women in Islam.

The Historical Context of Sharia and Women's Rights

Welcome Hamza Yusuf. Let's start off a little bit about the history of the Sharia and the role of women in that. In the 7th century Arabia, the Sharia or Islamic law was established to protect women's rights in the fields of freedom of belief, property, lineage and honor for example.

If that was its purpose, why today is Islam seen as oppressive to women?

Understanding the Development of Sharia

Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim. I would say first and foremost that the Sharia is not something that came in the 7th century. The principles upon which the Sharia is based came in the 7th century. But the actual sacred law of Islam is a human endeavor. It took about 300 years to formulate. And much of it is based on human's attempt at understanding revelation.

And so you have always, when you're dealing with religious tradition, you're dealing with human attempts at understanding God's intent through a book or a revelation. Like the Christians attempting to understand what God intended for them through the Bible. The Muslims have the same historical situation in attempting to understand what God intended for them through the Quran.

The Limited Scope of Legal Verses in the Quran

So the actual laws that were given to the Prophet in the 7th century, there are not that many. And a lot of Muslims are unaware of that. The majority of the legal verses in the Quran, of which there are only about 500, out of over 6,600 verses in the Quran, only about 500 deal with legal situations.

And most of them deal with it in a way that enables situational law. In other words, that in different situations, different laws are applied. So there's aims and purposes behind law.

The Example of Theft Punishment and Contextual Application

So you have an example of in Islamic law, if somebody steals, then their hand is cut off. Now people think that that sounds barbaric. But the reality of it is that law only applies with certain types of theft. It doesn't apply for theft that occurred because things were left out. It's somebody breaking what we would call in this culture breaking and entering and stealing from a protected area. And then it's only under certain situations.

So Omar ibn al-Khattab, who's the second caliph of Islam, he suspended that law during a drought and a famine period because he said people were forced to steal in order to feed their families. And therefore the aim and purpose of the law was no longer being served in applying the law. So Islamic law is not some kind of simpleton's law of how to run a society in the 7th century and try to apply that in the 21st century. It's a very complex and sophisticated legal system. And it's based on rigorous principles that were laid down in the Quran.

Women's Property Rights in Islamic History

And there are certain legal issues that deal with women's rights. And at the time they were considered extremely radical. Now in this quote-unquote enlightened period of time, the Christians didn't give property rights to their women until the 19th century. And that's a historical fact.

In fact, in England, the women were constantly deprived of property and wealth because even second or third born sons, because in the English legal system in the 19th century, it was the first born who inherited all the property. And from the Islam point of view, that's unjust. So in Islam, 1400 years ago, women were given inheritance laws.

Understanding Islamic Inheritance Laws

And people say, well, what about a woman who only inherits half? Because the Quran says that a male gets twice as much as a female. That was specifically in one instance. There are other inheritance instances where women inherit and male relatives don't. Or women actually get more than the men.

But in one specific instance, which is when there's a son and a daughter, that would be a case where the son took twice as much as the daughter. And the reason for that, the reason behind it, is that a woman's wealth in Islam is discretionary. Her wealth, she can use it in whatever way she wants. Whereas a man's wealth, there's responsibilities related to it. He has to support his parents if they're old and unable to support themselves. He has to support any female relatives that don't have male support. He has responsibilities. And that was always understood by the scholars of Islam. They never saw it as men are twice as good as women or deserve twice as much. They saw it as a burden, that it was actually a burden.

So I think part of the problem is that because there's so much ignorance, not just amongst the Muslims, but certainly amongst the non-Muslims, but the Muslims themselves are ignorant about Islamic law.

The Cultural Expression of Islam Throughout History

Where in history do you suppose that the laws of the Sharia were abrogated in order to convince Muslim women that Islam was oppressive to them, and this abuse of Islam then encouraged in favor of men?

Islamic Laws and Their Application

First, I would say that I don't think anywhere have the laws of Islam been abrogated. I would rephrase that by saying that there are certainly, very early on, the laws of Islam were no longer being applied. In terms of

women, I don't think women have ever been convinced that Islam is oppressive for them, but I think that they have, in many Muslim countries, the way that Islam has expressed culturally itself is not dissimilar to the way that Christianity was expressed in the West for many centuries.

Basically patriarchal, with an idea of a certain hierarchy and a position of women in society. And I think what's difficult for people in the West to realize is that this quote-unquote women's liberation is a very recent phenomenon. And so when they look at the Muslim world, they're looking at a world that is not dissimilar to their own world not that long ago.

But these traditions are still maintained, and they're human traditions. Whether Islam agrees with that or not is a matter of looking into what Islam says about the specific situation.

Power Dynamics in Human Relationships

And why do you suppose that that happens?

The Nature of Power in Relationships

Well, I think that by the nature of relationships, power is an element in any human relationship. If you work in a corporation, you are in a power relationship with the people you work with. Your boss has certain power over you. One of the things that drives people crazy in corporations is watching people kiss up to the boss. Why do they do that? Why do they treat the boss with respect and they don't treat their fellow co-workers with that same respect? Because there's a power relationship involved here.

And I think that marriage, it's very easy to slip into power relationships that are dysfunctional, that are pathological, that are not healthy, but we're human beings and we do have certain elements in our personalities, in our nature. You're dealing with biology. Males are a more aggressive branch of the human family. And this is biological. Testosterone is a hormone that, if given to women, women become more aggressive. And this is something that has been confirmed in Western medicine.

The Importance of Proper Upbringing and Understanding

So I think that males, by their nature, have aggressive tendencies if they're not tempered by good upbringing, by their mothers, by humanization, and by an understanding of the awesome task and responsibility of being in a human relationship, whether it be family, in terms of a son towards the parents, the parents towards the children, or a husband towards the wife.

Women's Experience Across Cultures

How do you think women internalize that? How do you think that Muslim women manifest that in their roles today?

Universal Human Challenges

Well, I think women all over. Muslim women are women that happen to have that adjective, that they belong to a faith. But first and foremost, they're human beings. And so I think that you'll find, throughout the planet, you will find very similar pathologies manifested by human beings.

And there are certainly Americas filled with very dysfunctional relationships. Women here are grossly abused. The number one cause of murder amongst women in the United States is from their husbands or their boyfriends. I mean, you see this. So I don't think you can say Muslims have any monopoly on the mistreatment of women. I think globally we have a problem.

The Solution Lies in Adhering to Islamic Teachings

The problem in Islam occurs when Muslims do not adhere to the traditions of Islam, to the teachings of Islam. And vice versa, when they do adhere, you will see, in fact, extraordinary harmony occur in the human relationships, because very clear guidelines have been given in terms of gender relationships.

Muslim Responsibility for Current Conditions

So you're saying that Muslims have themselves to blame in a way that...

Understanding True Causation

First and foremost, yes. Absolutely. I mean, I think that what happens, because human beings, by nature we have certain flaws in our thinking, and that's why logic was traditionally taught as an actual science, in order to redress flaws. One of the flaws of people is cause and effect. People will often mistake, because they see certain effects, they'll mistake the cause. It's difficult to determine real cause.

Now what will happen if you look at the Muslim world, as a non-Muslim, when they look at the Muslim world and they see the dysfunctional nature of Muslim societies, they assume the cause is Islam. Whereas for a Muslim looking at the Muslim world and understanding his religion, he knows, in fact, the cause is the abandonment of Islam. It's the fact that these people are no longer practicing Islam.

The Principle of Proper Judgment

And so that's the important thing, is to understand that... The Arabs have a beautiful principle in the science of Bayan, which is one of the sciences of language. They say:

الحكم على شيء فرع عن تصوره

Al-hukm 'ala shay'in far'un 'an tasawwurihi - that before we can judge a thing, we have to understand it in all of its variables.

The Problem of Prejudice

And we're filled with a world of prejudice. People are constantly prejudging. The average American will make

remarks about Islam. They'll think that they're liberal, humanistic, unbiased, unprejudiced. And yet you ask them what they think of Islam, that's a stupid religion, it's a backward religion, it's oppressive to women. Have they ever read the Quran? No. Have they ever read a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad? No. So what are they basing that on? They're basing it on just observing Muslim societies.

Applying Logic Consistently

Well, if we observe Christian societies, have we seen turn-the-other-cheek applied in the West in the last 2,000 years? Was turn-the-other-cheek applied in Iraq? The biblical foundation of the Torah, according to Rabbi Hilal, who's one of the greatest Jewish rabbis, is that the entire message of the Torah, which is the Jewish book, is love God and love thy neighbor as thyself. Do we see the Jews practicing that towards their Palestinian neighbors?

Does that mean that the Torah is invalid as a book because of what the Jews are doing? Does that mean the Gospel is invalid as a book because of what the Christians are doing? But unfortunately, people apply logic outside of themselves that they like, and then they refuse to apply it on their own selves.

The Cosmology of Mercy and Justice

Let's talk a little bit about your analogy of mercy and justice. You've discussed that you see mercy characteristic to women and justice more characteristic or symbolic of men. Can you expand on that?

The Paradox of Mercy and Justice

I think if you look in the world, you will find that this is one of the paradoxes of the world, of the dilemmas of the world, is on the one hand we honor virtue as a religious virtue, and on the other hand we honor justice as a moral virtue. If we look at mercy as a religious virtue, it's very difficult for us to have justice when we bring mercy into. Some say, like Shakespeare, that mercy must temper justice. In other words, be just, but have that mercy temper the justice to prevent it from becoming harm or becoming a harshness.

The Islamic Understanding of Mercy

In the Christian world, mercy is at the root of the Christian message, this idea of mercy. I think in Islam, the woman is the embodiment of mercy. The word in Arabic for mercy rahma )رحمة( is derived from the word for womb )رحم - rahim(. And so the understanding of the Muslims has always been that the source of mercy in the world is the womb. It is the womb. It's the blood bonds that bond us as Adamic people, that we're from Bani Adam, we're children of Adam, and therefore we should have compassion for all human beings, irrespective of their race, their creed, their color.

The Complementary Relationship

And at the same time, we need to have justice in the world in order for things to work in the marketplace. So my cosmological understanding in Islam is that a woman represents symbolically the virtue of mercy in the world,

Equality Versus Complementarity

But as far as worship in Allah, equality is the same in His eyes, as far as...

The Myth of Absolute Equality

No, there's no equality in worship, and I'll give you an example. Two people pray. One of them is sincere in his prayer, and the other is not. But outwardly, they look exactly the same. They're not equal. And the Quran, for instance, says: Are they equal? Those who know and those who don't know. They're not equal.

We're not living in a world of equality, and I think this is one of the modern misconceptions of the world, this lie to try to create this so-called egalitarian society. There has never on this planet been an egalitarian society.

Human beings are not equal. They're not equal in talent and gifts.

Equality Before the Law

The only place where they are equal is before the law. That is the only place. If a rich man and a poor man come before a judge, that judge has to treat them the same before the law. If a male or a female comes before a judge, that man must treat them equal before the law. In terms of actual real experience in the world, you will not find equality. It's a myth.

Equal Spiritual Potential

But in terms of seeking Allah's reward between a man and a woman, they have the same potential.

Women's Easier Path to Divine Grace

Yes, absolutely. In fact, really, it's unfair, because women have an easier route to gain God's grace, according to the Islamic tradition.

How so?

The Hadith of the Woman's Reward

Well, for instance, according to the Prophet Muhammad, a woman came to him and complained. She said, we see men go out and struggle in the way of God, defending the lands of Islam. We see them, they have more

money than we do, and they give charity. And we see them, they go to the congregational mosque five times a day, and we have children that keep us in our houses. They're getting all the reward.

And the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said, any woman who fulfills her trust to God and her responsibility in her household has the same reward as that man out there who's doing jihad, who's paying his charity, who's going to the mosque.

In other words, and I think the way my wife said that when she told me, she said that's not equal. She said it's that the Prophet understood how difficult it is to be a woman in this world.

The Greatest Responsibility: Raising Children

Because even though we feel that women may feel that they are fulfilling their purposes at home, they may feel they have another purpose of doing good for the ummah, in terms of being out in the public eye, for those reasons.

The Importance of Motherhood

The greatest good that a mother can do for not just the ummah of Islam, but for humanity, is to raise a human being. That is the greatest thing that she can do. And if she thinks she can do anything greater, she's deluded.

She is deluded.

Now, not every woman is a mother, and there are certainly many, many things that women can do. But if a woman has a child, once she's committed to that, and has a child, if she abandons that responsibility in pursuit of some empty career, or some idea of making her mark on the world, she has completely misunderstood the great importance and the great responsibility that she has been given by God in that the fruit of her womb is before her, and she will be asked, all of you are shepherds, and every shepherd is responsible for his flock.

The Hadith of Shepherds and Responsibility

And then he said, a ruler is a shepherd, and he's responsible for the country. A husband is a shepherd, and he's responsible for his family. And a woman is a shepherd, and she's responsible for her children.

The Problem of Child Abandonment

So, if a woman brings children into this world, and then dumps them in a daycare center where people have 20 or 30 children, and a woman's being paid $8 an hour to look after those 20 or 30 children, and then she thinks that somehow she's doing something more important by going out and working, I think there's something very seriously wrong with her maternal instincts.

Because abandonment in the animal kingdom, abandonment is alien to animals. They will only do abandonment out of mercy. They will abandon an animal out of mercy. They won't abandon if the animal is well.

The Case of Financial Necessity

With respect to your response to that, what if that is a woman's only means of livelihood?

Understanding Context and Circumstance

That's another situation. You see, you can't, yeah. I mean, Islam is not, again, it's not a simpleton's religion. If a woman has no other source of income, and she's forced to do certain things, then she's forced to do them. And that, the shame is on the men. The shame is on the men for not facilitating for women to raise their children.

The State of Children in Modern Society

I mean, we're living, if you look at America right now, look at the children in this country. Look at the rage. Listen to the music. Don't listen to it. But if you do listen to it from these loudspeakers coming out of their cars as they drive by, that music is filled with rage. And look at their faces. Look at the spiritual state of these people, or the bereft state, the lack of spirituality.

And to give some of them credit, I'm amazed at how well some of them do despite all of the odds against them.

I am amazed that there's children out there, there's young people out there that are really struggling to find a purpose to their life in a world that is telling them constantly, including their parents, by abandoning them, that they are worthless and that their lives are purposeless.

Women's Public Contribution When Family Is Secure

Okay, irrespective of financial need, looking at your analogy of mercy in women and that being characteristic of women, say a woman, Muslim woman, married with children, her husband provides well and family is doing fine, if she feels that with this characteristic of having mercy, is able to go out into the working world and is able to do something good for the ummah, whether it be in the media, whether it be in any form of her capability, and her family is being taken care of, how does that configure with abandonment?

What Children Truly Need

Well, again, I would reemphasize that no one can give to children what a mother can give to their children. That doesn't mean there aren't pathological mothers out there. There are. There are mothers that dump their babies into garbage cans. I mean, this happens. People read about these things in the newspapers and some people experience them firsthand.

But the point is, is that children need time. Children thrive on time. I have three children. They're homeschooled and the amount of time that, not just my wife, but that I put into those children is immense. And they thrive on it. They need time. And parents now spend five or ten minutes with their children in a day. And you cannot do that to a child. You will kill that child's soul.

The Consequences of Neglect

And they'll end up spending the rest of their life seeking that love in pathological ways from other people.

They'll end up spending it by trying to be superficial beings that only think that their worth in the world is physical, like so many of the women out there.

Why are all these women getting plastic surgery to rearrange their faces? Why are they out there jogging in the streets trying to keep up with some image of the body that has been presented to them by a mainstream media that has essentially, at its root, a desire to sell them things, to sell them cosmetics, to sell them clothes that quote-unquote look sexy, to sell them toothpaste that's going to make them more presentable. I mean, this is what's happening out there.

The Spiritual Crisis

People are in a very... If you look out at the world right now, look out there. Look at the state of human beings right now. So many of these women that I see out there do not look well. They do not look well to me. And I think part of it is because their souls are telling them that they're not well because they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing.

And if you don't do what you're supposed to do in this world, your soul will let you know from every which way and it will be painful. You'll end up... If you don't listen to your soul, you'll end up on antidepressants, you'll end up on alcohol, you'll end up on drugs, you'll end up in pathological relationships.

The True Purpose of Human Existence

So what is the role of the woman which would be deemed as Islamically correct?

Beyond Roles to Purpose

I mean, I just... You know, the role... I hate that word first and foremost because it's an acting metaphor. Which word? The role. But anyway, it's English language, but... I would say that not so much the role, but the purpose of a woman is the same as the purpose of a man, and that is to know their Lord before they die.

And that is why they were created. And everything else is incidental. That is the essential purpose of a human being, is to have a direct relationship with the creator of the heavens and the earth. And if they're told anything else, it's a lie.

Children as a Path to God

If they're told that their main role in life is to have children, that is a lie. Children are a path to God, and they're a powerful path, and children are spiritual teachers. Children are teachers. They teach us. And they also remind us about a pure world, a pure state, and a state that our souls were once in.

But I would say that the purpose of a woman is the purpose of a man. It is to know and worship God.

The Impact of Culture on Identity

How much of an impact is our cultural heritage, as women have on our identities today? How much does culture play in our identities?

Nature and Nurture

Well, you know, the nature-nurture argument, I think that nature and nurture are both working together.

Environment has a massive impact. If you grow up in Sri Lanka, you'll enjoy listening to a certain type of music that most Americans would have a really difficult time listening to, and vice versa. Sri Lankan would be horrified at what people listen to in Los Angeles. But, well, that's changing due to global pressures.

But there's no doubt that culture plays an incredible, has an incredible impact. And the stories of a culture. In our culture, I was raised as a Christian, and in the Christian culture, we're taught that Eve basically is the cause of the fall of man, which is alien to the Islamic belief, but it's central to the Christian belief.

Post-Christian Feminism

And this is why many Christian women, or post-Christian women, have abandoned Christianity, because they don't like the idea of praying to a father. They don't like the idea of a male god. And this is something that is alien to Islam. Islam has no understanding of a male god. God is beyond male and female. God's attributes are exalted beyond human attributes. We don't anthropomorphize God.

The Divine Attributes in Islam

God is called a king in the Quran, Malik )ملك( which tends to be a male attribute. But he's also called Al-Wadud الودود which is the word for a loving wife. He's also called Al-Rahman )الرحمن( which is the merciful, coming, and the word for womb is derived out of that word, Rahman.

So the Muslims have always understood that there are what are known as Jamali )جمالي( and Jalali )جلالي( attributes of God. Beautiful and majestic. And they've always seen them in terms of that women are a manifestation of divine beauty. And men are a manifestation of divine majesty.

Inner and Outer Manifestations

And outwardly, and inwardly, it's reversed. Inwardly, women have divine majesty as the attribute that's manifesting in them. And inwardly, men have divine beauty. That's the way it's supposed to be. I mean, these are healthy. I'm talking about healthy, cosmological understandings. When people are living as Adamic people.

The Degradation Below Animals

But one of the things that can happen to human beings according to the Quran is they can be reduced to lower than animals. And you see it out there. Look at human beings out there. There's a billboard now for a movie that

The Role of Media and Entertainment

Hollywood is a whole other program, I think.

Hollywood as a Symptom

Well, Hollywood is, I think, they say artists are the antennae of society. Hollywood is letting us know where we're going. They're a symptom. Hollywood is not the disease. Hollywood is a symptom. The fact that we have allowed these things to permeate our consciousness.

How do you think we have allowed that to happen?

The Power of Consumer Choice

Well, Hollywood can't exist if people don't buy the tickets to their films and watch the programs and buy the corporate rubbish that the people that own them sell.

Do you think that if Muslims became more involved in Hollywood that things could change?

No, I think it's a horrible thing. Hollywood will change them. They won't change Hollywood.

Women's Voices in the Public Arena

American Muslim women are beginning to pick up a momentum of being more involved in the public arena to have their voices heard. And you may see this as our wish to become more like men. However, is it wrong to be seen in the public eye if our intention is to do good for the ummah?

The Necessity of Female Activism

Well, I mean, you're putting those words into my mouth. I wouldn't see it as becoming more like men. I think women have responsibility. In fact, I personally believe that if women don't have indignation about what's happening to their children, about what's happening to their societies, and if that indignation does not motivate them to literally do some serious measures, to take serious measures to enact a change, then things will get worse.

I think that women have immense power and immense potential to do good and to be a transformative element in society. And women are half the human condition, and there needs to be more female influence on the world.

The Problem of Male Dominance

I think part of the problem with the world is that there's been too much male dominance, too much male influence, and it's had a very unhealthy impact. We call the earth Mother Earth, and that's not a Western idea.

That's actually an Islamic concept as well. The Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) in a hadith in Tabarani said, this earth is your mother. (Tabarani)

Environmental Destruction and Male Aggression

And I think the fact that raping and pillaging of the earth, which is going on right now all over the planet, is symptomatic of aggressive male energy. And that if that male energy is not tempered by the humanizing element of the female, of the mother, of getting the milk of human kindness, that we will continue to do this until we destroy the viability for human life on the earth. And I think that the criminals behind that will be men. They will not be women, unless we see women as complicit in the crime by their silence.

So I don't believe that at all. I think women have to do something. And I think there are signs of that. I think that there are women in this culture that have done extraordinary things. We have a history of women, not just in the West, but in the Muslim world.

The Story of the Andalusian Poet

There's a beautiful story of an Andalusian woman. She was a poet who was so distressed by the tyranny of a governor in her province that she wrote a poem to the caliph. And in the poem she said, What do you say about a shepherd who's eating his flock? And the poem was so powerful, she sent it through a messenger to the caliph. And when he read the poem, he was moved to tears. And he actually went to that city and ascertained indeed that the governor was oppressing the people and he removed him.

And that was from the poem of a woman. That is a beautiful display of political dissent at the highest levels and shows you the sophistication of the people. Not just the men, but the sophistication of the women to actually protest in poetry and to have that poetry move the ruler to the degree that he would do something was a testimony to what type of people they were.

The Issue of Honor Killings

Let's talk a little bit about issues where women seem to not have as much power, as you could say. As far as in Jordan, an average of 30 women a year are killed in honor killings. Where is the justice in that?

Islam Has No Concept of Honor Killings

Well, I mean, there isn't any justice there. I don't... You know, the question is... There's no justice. Honor killings, what is honor killings? Islam has no concept of that. The Christian Arabs do that. Mexicans used to do that.

But there are reports of it in other Muslim countries.

A Historical Global Phenomenon

I mean, this is... There are reports of it in Pakistan. This used to happen all over the world. This happened in

Christian countries. This is just a situation that existed in many parts of the world. It doesn't justify it. But the fact that it still exists in that part of the world is only indicative of the fact that familial honor is still an extremely important, if not a central element to those societies.

The Issue of Chastity and Social Dynamics

And a woman's chastity is still considered something that is at the essence of the honor of a family, as well as the chastity of a male. But because it tends to be a patriarchal culture, and because of the fact that women, when they lose their virginity, there are generally physical signs of it, and certainly pregnancy can occur. Whereas with a man, a man is more veiled than a woman in that situation.

But in no way does it mean that a man who commits fornication or adultery is any less condemnable than a woman. They're both terrible breaches of divine comportment.

A Cross-Cultural Problem

But I would say that Christians have the same concept in their ignorant societies. Arab Christians have done this. There was an Arab Christian that killed his daughter in Chicago. This occurred in the United States. It's a very sick thing to do. I find somebody would have to be a really sick human being to be able to kill their own progeny.

The American Context of Abortion

But in America, there's been over 20 million abortions. And the only difference in America is that they say, well, these are unborn. So I think before Americans start pointing the finger at 30 honor killings in Jordan, let's look at 20 million babies that have been killed in America. Really. I mean, America is a culture of amazing paradox.

Women's Voting Rights

Do you believe the fact that women are now allowed to vote in Kuwait regardless of the outcome is an encouraging indicator of women's movement here?

Historical Context of Women's Suffrage

Well, like the bumper sticker says, don't vote, it only encourages them. I don't know. I mean, the idea of Muslim having a vote or not having a vote, the first country to give women the vote was Egypt in the 1880s. The Americans didn't have, there was one state, I think it was Wisconsin, that gave women the vote in the 19th century. It was the only state. There's only one state in America. Maybe all the feminists should move there or something.

But there's no other, in America, other women didn't get the vote until the 1920s, right? When the Constitution was, there was an amendment to give women the vote.

The Traditional Family Unit Concept

But the idea traditionally in a traditional culture was one family, one vote. That was the idea. It wasn't the idea that women didn't have the right to vote. It was, there was an understanding of a family unit that generally the family would support. And if you have a husband and a wife that are voting for different people, I mean, you've got a serious problem in your family, right? In other words, there's a real conflict. That is a conflict. I think that's a very deep conflict. That's not a superficial conflict.

And they should have maybe done a poll before they got married to see how they would vote or something like that because that's going to indicate some compatibility. And many marriages have ended in divorce because of Republican and Democrat splits in America.

Questioning the Voting System

So do you think that women then shouldn't vote?

I don't, I mean, I think voting, the whole idea of voting is, there's a magical element here, this mystery of, I think that the last election in the United States indicated the reality of the vote in this country. I mean, people are starting to wonder, are we living in a banana republic in the United States when a presidential candidate can get the popular vote and lose the election? Well, I have to wonder, well, why am I voting? I mean, seriously, why am I voting?

All right, so I don't know. I mean, if men are going to vote, I think women should vote. Why not? I don't have a problem with that. I think it's just logic. But I think we have to question the entire, see, for me, I want to question the whole system.

Federalism and Local Governance

I mean, do I really, I don't, federalism is a very strange form of government. I think to have Washington, D.C. dictating how Irvine should run their local, I think people locally should decide their own, people say, well, that's everything. So power should be into the local community. I mean, I would, I'm a libertarian when it comes to that type position.

You know, just let people locally decide what they need to do. If people locally want to have prayers in school, why can't they have prayers in school? If you've got 100% Christian community in Idaho, why should the federal government tell them they can't pray five minutes before they start their classes?

Whereas if you have Hindus and Buddhists and Jews and secular humanists or a Marxist that say they don't want to have that, we'll have five minutes of silence and everybody can do what they want. You know, they can do their homework or something.

Personal Responsibility and Maturity

But this idea of dictating to people like these paternal wise men, the learned elders, are going to dictate for us how we should run our families and our societies, I think that you're an infant for seven years of your life and then you begin to take responsibility and by the time you reach adulthood, if you haven't worked out what you need to do, you've either been poorly raised or something's seriously wrong with you.

Challenges Women Face Today

What challenges do you think women face in this society today?

Shared Human Challenges

I think women need to decide that for themselves. I think that, I would say for me, the challenges that women face are the challenges that men face. We're in this together. We're on the same planet. Half my family, I'm married, I have a wife and I have children. Her concerns are my concerns and my concerns are her concerns. And I think if you're in a relationship that's healthy, that's the way it should be.

So I think that what's out there in terms of the society is as detrimental to men as it is to women. I really believe that. I think that men are up against as much difficulty in trying to be human in this world as women, if not more, if not more.

Conclusion

Okay. Well, we appreciate you being with us this hour and thank you very much. Thank you.